What it takes to be a man (my interpretation)

stoicHoneyBadger

After reading Kipling's "if" and thinking about the best way to raise my son, I made a list of what traits one should have to be able to call himself a Man. What would you add to it?

Mind of a philosopher
You must be able to see beyond concepts given by our culture, in the same time without turning into a cynic or finding yourself in an intellectual freefall. You must be able to listen to others, yet firmly stand on your own intellectual feet. You must understand that everything is relative, yet know the things you would be willing to kill for.

Meditate. Learn to perceive the reality as an experience. Be undisturbed both by your own monkey-mind or external circumstances.

Spirit of a warrior
You must be courageous, especially when facing reality. Never sacrifice the truth for comfort. Be able to make a leap of faith when needed, to step into the unknown, to reevaluate all your axioms.

Body of an athlete
Our body is a tool with which our sole operates in this world. Keep this tool in pristine condition.
Build endurance by running. Muscles by lifting weight. Stamina by fighting. Calmness with yoga.

Soul of a creator
Look for opportunities to create. Be it writing a poem or coding an application. Drawing a painting or designing a house. Coining new philosophical concepts, etc.

Philosophim

Sounds like a decent set of ideals to be a woman as well. Introduce the concepts to him, and let him figure out which best fit him. Temper his weaknesses and encourage his strengths.

praxis

So a woman only needs to be a good housekeeper and breeder?

firmly stand on your own intellectual feet. — stoicHoneyBadger

Sounds a bit insecure.

Be undisturbed both by your own monkey-mind or external circumstances. — stoicHoneyBadger

Teach them to be afraid to feel?

Be able to make a leap of faith when needed, to step into the unknown, to reevaluate all your axioms. — stoicHoneyBadger

Why make a leap of faith if you're comfortable stepping into the unknown?

stoicHoneyBadger

Sounds like a decent set of ideals to be a woman as well. — Philosophim

Yes, thank you. )

So a woman only needs to be a good housekeeper and breeder? — praxis

no, not sure why you need to inject this here...

Sounds a bit insecure. — praxis

quite the opposite. Like learn lots of view and conjure your own.

Teach them to be afraid to feel? — praxis

Not afraid, but don't let feelings drive you, when it is counter productive.

Why make a leap of faith if you're comfortable stepping into the unknown? — praxis

To step into the unknown, you usually need to make some kind of a leap of faith. ;)

praxis

↪stoicHoneyBadger

Not knowing doesn’t require faith.

BC

↪stoicHoneyBadger

I am reluctant to endorse your goals for your son.

It's all well and good to have the mind of a philosopher, the spirit of a warrior, the body of an athlete, and the soul of a creator, IF and only IF those are the traits your son has the native ability to manifest, and IF, and only IF those are the traits your son wants to have. (The jury is likely to remain out for a long time on whether some, all, or none of these traits are learned or are native.)

He may be a perfectly fine son, person, citizen, etc. and not manifest these traits.

Suppose he doesn't pan out the way you want him to?

Banno

↪stoicHoneyBadger

Kipling is for children.

Tom Storm

↪Bitter Crank

Yep - sounds like a recipe for disappointment and blunder.

Sir2u

thinking about the best way to raise my son — stoicHoneyBadger

So if it was a daughter you would raise her differently from your son?

Sounds like a bit of a macho attitude.
Honesty, good reasoning, loyalty to those who deserve it, fear of the dangerous, respect for the living. Things like that are what any and all kids need, not sons are warriors and daughters are breeders. Do you let your kid wear pink clothes if he wants to?
Teach any kid the basics and let them decide how to live without your expectations forcing them into unwanted paths.

Hanover

↪stoicHoneyBadger

I would add to your list that your kid be raised to be respectful of those fearful, weak, and simple minded and who don't achieve to an impossible standard, but to look at each person's heart for who they are.

So, to the extent one evaluates their child based upon your criteria, they will have failed to have the respect I just described, but they would have instead been a person too quick to declare their own child a failure.

Am I saying your kid is to get the same love, respect, and pride from you regardless of whether they satisfy your competitve criteria? Yes, yes I am.

Agent Smith

↪stoicHoneyBadger

God (omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent) is a good role model for boys in my humble opinion. I suppose that's why Adam, along with Eve, got kicked out of the garden of Eden. Adam became a competitor.

You might also like:

1. Muscular Christianity

2. Christian Manliness

@180 Proof thinks it's psychological projection.

Possibility

After reading Kipling's "if" and thinking about the best way to raise my son, I made a list of what traits one should have to be able to call himself a Man. What would you add to it? — stoicHoneyBadger

I will be charitable here and assume you didn’t just mean this as a guide for masculinity. I think your son needs to recognise these qualities in both genders, for starters.

With due respect to Kipling, I think we need to bring some of this out of the colonialist attitudes of the 19th century. Much of this is about recognising your own limitations in view of the potentiality of humanity as a whole. I would suggest striving for a clearer understanding of ‘the things you would be willing to kill for’, as part of ‘re-evaluating all your axioms’.

I think there is also a key aspect missing here: recognising the interconnectedness and interdependence of all life and the universe, despite the sense that we often stand alone and vulnerable against the world. Be willing to increase awareness over ignorance, connection over isolation and collaboration over exclusion, at every opportunity.

stoicHoneyBadger

I will be charitable here and assume you didn’t just mean this as a guide for masculinity. I think your son needs to recognise these qualities in both genders, for starters. — Possibility

Well, genders clearly have their differences, such as you wouldn't want to take your daughter to boxing and weightlifting. :)

Be willing to increase awareness over ignorance, connection over isolation and collaboration over exclusion, at every opportunity. — Possibility

I guess it is very situation dependent and probably should be goal orientated. i.e. you don't want to include random people just for the sake of it.

stoicHoneyBadger

God (omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent) is a good role model for boys in my humble opinion. I suppose that's why Adam, along with Eve, got kicked out of the garden of Eden. Adam became a competitor. — Agent Smith

Thank you, I will look into it. Yet I myself am not a huge fan of Christianity, with all my respect to it, the way it manifests seems to be more of a "religion for the weak". You might argue it gives one strength to overcome suffering, but probably not strength to do bald things...

stoicHoneyBadger

Am I saying your kid is to get the same love, respect, and pride from you regardless of whether they satisfy your competitve criteria? Yes, yes I am. — Hanover

I am not saying that children not satisfying such criteria are not worthy. This is more like an ideal to strive for, understanding that of course you will fall short in some regards.

Agent Smith

religion for the weak — stoicHoneyBadger

Most idols tend to have attributes the idolizers lack. I suppose they complement each other - making up for each others' defects. An alloy is better than either of the metals that are so combined. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts (Holism).

stoicHoneyBadger

So if it was a daughter you would raise her differently from your son? — Sir2u

Of course. Boys would benefit from boxing & weightlifting. Girls certainly not so much. :) so probably swimming or jiujitsu would do better.

fear of the dangerous, — Sir2u

Not sure being overly fearful is a good idea, thought...

daughters are breeders — Sir2u

Why would you use such a derogatory term towards women?

Do you let your kid wear pink clothes if he wants to? — Sir2u

Of course not.

Teach any kid the basics and let them decide how to live without your expectations forcing them into unwanted paths. — Sir2u

That's how my parents raised me, to be honest not the best approach, as it takes time to figure things out. Like understanding that you need boxing and starting to learn it when you're almost 40 is harder, than when you're 10. )

stoicHoneyBadger

Most idols tend to have attributes the idolizers lack. I suppose the complement each other - making up for each others' defects. An alloy is better than either of the metals that are so combined. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts (Holism). — Agent Smith

Not sure I understand what it has to do with the topic at hand...

Agent Smith

Not sure I understand what it has to do with the topic at hand... — stoicHoneyBadger

:ok:

stoicHoneyBadger

He may be a perfectly fine son, person, citizen, etc. and not manifest these traits.
Suppose he doesn't pan out the way you want him to? — Bitter Crank

I mean it is an ideal to strive towards. Certainly no one has 100% of all of those traits.

Possibility

Well, genders clearly have their differences, such as you wouldn't want to take your daughter to boxing and weightlifting. :) — stoicHoneyBadger

I don’t see why not, if she showed an interest. I certainly wouldn’t push my son to do boxing, if he’d rather do karate. But then, I took the sports you indicated as figurative, rather than literal.

Be willing to increase awareness over ignorance, connection over isolation and collaboration over exclusion, at every opportunity.
— Possibility

I guess it is very situation dependent and probably should be goal orientated. i.e. you don't want to include random people just for the sake of it. — stoicHoneyBadger

First of all, I said nothing about random inclusion. ‘Random’ implies ignorance and isolation. If you’re willing to increase awareness and connection, then there’d be no reason to exclude. ‘You must be courageous, especially when facing reality.’

stoicHoneyBadger

‘Random’ implies ignorance and isolation. If you’re willing to increase awareness and connection, then there’d be no reason to exclude — Possibility

Not sure I get it. I mean the whole idea of a group is that there also in an out-group, so you can not include all and everyone. )

I don’t see why not, if she showed an interest. — Possibility

Broad shoulders and a broken nose would not look good on a girl. :D jk

Possibility

Not sure I get it. I mean the whole idea of a group is that there also in an out-group, so you can not include all and everyone. — stoicHoneyBadger

Where does it say there has to be definitive group?

Broad shoulders and a broken nose would not look good on a girl. :D jk — stoicHoneyBadger

Are you suggesting a broken nose ‘looks good’ on a guy? I would dispute that. And plenty of girls have naturally broad shoulders - does this make them less of a girl? Why so focused on appearances?

The merits of boxing have nothing to do with broken noses - it’s about the disciplined use of power: knowing when NOT to strike, when to block, etc.

And the merits of weightlifting have nothing to do with broad shoulders - it has to do with developing strength, understanding how to maximise and extend your physical limitations.

stoicHoneyBadger

Where does it say there has to be definitive group? — Possibility

all human history. also it seems an inevitable trait of human psychology, for a large group to split into multiple sub-groups that compete against each other.

And plenty of girls have naturally broad shoulders - does this make them less of a girl? — Possibility

Yes. You wouldn't want to date a girl that looks like a dude. As weightlifting certainly gives you broader shoulders, be it your main goal or just a side effect.

The merits of boxing have nothing to do with broken noses - it’s about the disciplined use of power: knowing when NOT to strike, when to block, etc. — Possibility

I would say that the merits of boxing is
1. not being afraid of a physical altercation.
2. in case of such, being able to knock out your opponent and the confidence that comes with it.

Possibility

all human history. also it seems an inevitable trait of human psychology, for a large group to split into multiple sub-groups that compete against each other. — stoicHoneyBadger

No, that’s a limitation of social animals that our minds have potentially evolved beyond, but we keep falling back to it for an illusion of safety.

And plenty of girls have naturally broad shoulders - does this make them less of a girl?
— Possibility

Yes. You wouldn't want o date a girl that looks like a dude. As weightlifting certainly gives you broader shoulders, be it your main goal or just a side effect. — stoicHoneyBadger

No, YOU wouldn’t. You don’t get to answer for all men. Broad shoulders does not necessarily mean someone ‘looks like a dude’ - what a narrow-minded, discriminatory expectation!

I gave you the benefit of the doubt, initially, but it seems clearer to me now that you plan to teach your son these traits are for men only, and that a girl just needs to look pretty. You need to wake up, mate - this is the 21st century, and that shit’s not gonna fly anymore.

stoicHoneyBadger

No, YOU wouldn’t. You don’t get to answer for all men. — Possibility

I am sure I can answer for most men. If you prefer dudes, or at least girls that look like dudes, well, that's up to you.

You need to wake up, mate - this is the 21st century, and that shit’s not gonna fly anymore. — Possibility

I do not see decadence, i.e. loosing standards, as a positive thing, rather as a potentially deadly illness of a civilization.

Of course girls need to have a good character, etc., but in general traits see as positive in a man and in a woman are very different.

praxis

I am sure I can answer for most men. If you prefer dudes, or at least girls that look like dudes, well, that's up to you. — stoicHoneyBadger

Possibility is a woman, if I’m not mistaken.

At the gyms where I live more men than women lift but the difference isn’t that great. Strong fit women are hot, btw. Are you just intimidated by them? Pools have slightly more men than woman, I would estimate. I’ve never done boxing classes but wouldn’t be surprised if there were a good amount of women. Incidentally, before Covid I would be among the very few men that did Zumba classes. Guess that makes me a girlyman.

Like Possibility say, ya need to join the 21st century, if only for your children's sake.

Possibility

I am sure I can answer for most men. If you prefer dudes, or at least girls that look like dudes, well, that's up to you. — stoicHoneyBadger

Ahh! The classic ‘men = most men’ defense, and then trying to cast dispersions on my sexual orientation. Seriously, it’s almost a caricature!

I don’t think you have any authority to answer for most men. No one does. The fact that you are so sure you do is just patriarchy at work. You’re not doing your intelligence any favours here.

And I do prefer dudes, actually. Most women do. :wink:

stoicHoneyBadger

Like Possibility say, ya need to join the 21st century, if only for your children's sake. — praxis

I'm from eastern Europe and what I see going on in US, Canada, UK, etc. is perceived not as progress, but as madness. So we clearly have no desire to join this lunacy, we'd better stay with Poland, the Czech republic, Ukraine, etc.

It seems that civilizations go the same life cycle as people. First you are an infant, than a confused teenager, at some point you become a productive adult, but than inevitably turn senile and die. So all this 'gender neutral' stuff is as progressive as a progressing dementia. ;)

stoicHoneyBadger

The fact that you are so sure you do is just patriarchy at work. — Possibility

And what's wrong with that?

Ciceronianus

↪stoicHoneyBadger

There are very few you think can be called a "Man" in the world, it seems.

What it takes to be a man (my interpretation)

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