Hey look it's that one time from the NYT in 2015 when Obama decided that unlike in other situations he would not continue to be a war criminal!:



I knew that Putin-loving shmuck was up to no good when he decided that er, not provoking Russia was something a sane person would do.

https://nytimes.com/2015/06/12/world/europe/defying-obama-many-in-congress-press-to-arm-ukraine.html

The wonderful thing about Western propagandists is that it's propagandists really believe the shit they say. And it's all the more pernicious - along a certain axis - precisely because of that sincerity. — StreetlightX

Absolutely.

One thing I find disturbing about this whole discussion about propaganda is the inherent racism. The idea that there's all these dumb gullible Russians who'll believe whatever garbage Putin throws at them, but the discerning American will carefully sift through their wonderful diversity of narratives for the illusive truth, as opposed to the reality that most will just lap up whatever vomit comes out of the current talking head interrupting their passionate dissection of some celebrity's latest lapse of humanity.

One thing I find disturbing about this whole discussion about propaganda is the inherent racism. — Isaac

Disturbing but not surprising.

No. I was disagreeing because measures of press freedom are not measures of press dominance. — Isaac

But we were talking of propaganda dominance, not 'press dominance', whatever that means. Try to focus. If the state can forbid all independent media, it can totally dominate the narrative. Think about it. It's not that hard to understand.

I think they can get to outside news via VPNs, but still, can you imagine trying to sort out the truth in that situation? With outside news sources saying your leader is straight lying about genocide and nazis. :grimace:

It must be pretty schizophrenic. I travelled through Hungary in the 80's. It was rather sad how nobody would ever speak their mind in public but would unload in private.

I met an Albanian once, who had this story about the death of Enver Hoxha. She was at school when the news broke, a pupil in an average primary school in Albania. The teacher said that this was a terrible news and that they should all cry now. She found it hard to do, in fact she started to laugh irrepressibly. She quickly put her head down in her arms, crouched on her desk, and pretended to sob, all the while she was laughing and laughing. That's how she got through that.

Because they might be arrested for speaking out in public?

Meanwhile when mass child murderers like Madeleine Albright drop dead, people in the West really are sad about it.

But we were talking of propaganda dominance, not 'press dominance', whatever that means. — Olivier5

I assume you already understand the link between 'press' and 'propaganda', else why bring in Reporters Sans Frontières index for press freedom. You mentioned 'press' first here. Try to focus.

If the state can forbid all independent media, it can totally dominate the narrative. Think about it. It's not that hard to understand. — Olivier5

Indeed it can. So you've supplied a mechanism by which the state can dominate the narrative, well done.

Now explain why you providing such a mechanism in any way has any relevance whatsoever to the argument that threre is a similar dominance exerted over the narrative in the west by other mechanisms.

I know the concept of more than one mechanism to achieve the same ends might blow your neoliberal-constrained mind, but slowly, carefully, try to get your head round the concept.

Zizek's invocation of the 'post-modern father' comes to mind:

Instead of bringing freedom, the fall of the oppressive authority thus gives rise to new and more severe prohibitions. How are we to account for this paradox? Think of the situation known to most of us from our youth: the unfortunate child who, on Sunday afternoon, has to visit his grandmother instead of being allowed to play with friends. The old-fashioned authoritarian father’s message to the reluctant boy would have been: “I don’t care how you feel. Just do your duty, go to grandmother and behave there properly!” In this case, the child’s predicament is not bad at all: although forced to do something he clearly doesn’t want to, he will retain his inner freedom and the ability to (later) rebel against the paternal authority.

Much more tricky would have been the message of a “postmodern” non-authoritarian father: “You know how much your grandmother loves you! But, nonetheless, I do not want to force you to visit her – go there only if you really want to!” Every child who is not stupid (and as a rule they are definitely not stupid) will immediately recognize the trap of this permissive attitude: beneath the appearance of a free choice there is an even more oppressive demand than the one formulated by the traditional authoritarian father, namely an implicit injunction not only to visit the grandmother, but to do it voluntarily, out of the child’s own free will. Such a false free choice is the obscene superego injunction: it deprives the child even of his inner freedom, ordering him not only what to do, but what to want to do.

Western propaganda is of the latter type.

Yes, of course.

In the worse countries, you couldn't even trust the taxi drivers. Those queuing at the airport in particular could be bugged or the driver part of the local Stasi. But in Hungary in the 80's taxi drivers were all 'liberalised'. They were often profs and doctors having to work an extra job to make do. So they would speak relatively freely during their ride.

I remember that racism against non-magyars (Roms in particular) was already an issue, even under this communist paradise. Now of course they are lead by rather extreme nationalists.

The food was good, and plentiful. People were reasonably content but no one was happy. Nobody was ever smiling for instance, or joking or laughing their ass off, even when drunk. No public expression of joy.

(info on kremlin propaganda and authoritarianism gone haywire)

If you listen to a song called "Wonder" by Avoure and Hexlogic on Google music, it says "While you are listening to this track, my nation is dying under Russian attack"

:sad:

No public expression of joy. — Olivier5

Has that changed since the 1980s?

beneath the appearance of a free choice there is an even more oppressive demand than the one formulated by the traditional authoritarian father, namely an implicit injunction not only to visit the grandmother, but to do it voluntarily, out of the child’s own free will. Such a false free choice is the obscene superego injunction: it deprives the child even of his inner freedom, ordering him not only what to do, but what to want to do.

Perfect.

Not only must you think this way, but it is you who are fundamentally malformed if you don't. Not merely no longer playing for the same team, but actually malfunctioning. If your 'free will' doesn't lead you to this choice, there would be demonstrably something wrong with your will.

Indeed it can. So you've supplied a mechanism by which the state can dominate the narrative, well done. — Isaac

It's not rocket science. But you have managed to understand the point. Well done.

Now explain why you providing such a mechanism in any way has any relevance whatsoever to the argument that threre is a similar dominance exerted over the narrative in the west by other mechanisms.

It seems to me that you are trying to say something here. So instead of me explaining to you what you are trying to say, why don't you explain it yourself? Don't be shy.

Yes, i've been to Budapest since, and you can have good fun there. I recommend the art deco baths, where you can play chess in the water.

instead of me explaining to you what you are trying to say, why don't you explain it yourself? — Olivier5

As with the last time you tried this...

I'm not writing [it] all out again. I've already stated [it], you opposed [it] with your knee-jerk tribalism, I pointed that out...now you want to avoid that whole discussion by pretending it never started. Fascinating though they are, there's a limit to the effort I'm willing to put in to play your games. It's entertaining to watch you dance, but if it takes too much to wind you back up again... — Isaac

:grin:

What?

Yep, that's kinda cool. It's like a huge spa from before WW1, I think, all with naturally hot spring water that doesn't stink sulphur too much.

There's also a (smaller) classic Turkish bath in Budapest, dating back to when Soliman the Magnificent was battling Vienna. Budapest was Turkish at the time.



There are also castles and churches and museums and parks and a funicular. A whole lot of statues, generally nationalistic. Some neighborhood still look as or more run down than during communist times, but the city center is rutilant and open for business.

rutilant — Olivier5

Congratulations! You are the first person to use "rutilant" on The Philosophy Forum. New to me, it means "glowing or glittering with red or golden light". Does Budapest have a proper red-light district?

Neither chess nor naked men are my thing but to each his own!

Does Budapest have a proper red-light district? — Bitter Crank

There are some of these horrible places called "striptease joints." :halo:


With a number of interesting options inside. :naughty:

DISCLAIMER: Those men are not naked. They all wear a proper speedo, of a dark navy blue with a gold blazon if they are members. I thought this needed to be said before someone gets too excited... :-)

Budapest seems to be all turquoise and orange. Have you been to Ukraine?

No, never in Ukraine. I was in Kosovo, which had some similarities I think. For instance, every single village and town in Kosovo had two different names: one in Serb, and one in Albanian. And whether one used this or that name had (or could be seen as having) a nationalist undertone.

We used to write down the name of the Ukrainian capital as 'Kiev', but now the writing 'Kyiv' has come to be used instead in Western media. I suspect that Kyiv is a transcription of the Ukrainian writing while Kiev is the Russian one.

Interesting. There's a city in the US called New Orleans. It's always been pronounced new or-leenz' with emphasis on the last syllable. When a hurricane hit it, the media started calling it new or'-le-uns. Not sure why.

LOL. Been there too (before the hurricane) and liked it even better than Budapest. :grin: I hope they are back on their feet.

Can't keep New Orleans down, although Nature keeps trying.

And Nature will win, she eventually always does. But we fight it for a bit.

Going back to the OP, it looks like Russia is now using mercenaries to fight. Unsure how significant this will end up being, or if it is more of a PR stunt, unfortunately, we'll find out based on how many people die...

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/28/uk-says-russian-mercenaries-to-be-deployed-eastern-ukraine-liveblog