If I told you I had a dream last night and you responded by saying you don't believe me, the conversation stops right there. — L'éléphant
"Twins" (I know from having 2 sets of uncles who are 'identical') are not the same. "Mind twins" would (could) not be the same either. You, my friend, are not the same you that you were yesterday, a decade ago or as a child. — 180 Proof
That's what I'm saying -- my justification for the truth of my dream is your own experience, and vice versa. Are you not seeing the issue with this? There is no group of anti-dreams who calls us out on our bullshit dreams. No one. — L'éléphant
Why can't belief in god work the same way? Many people claim they have experienced the divinity or holy ghost. But we do not readily accept their account. — L'éléphant
This is not a proof. Doctors could only infer from our reports of pain -- but there's no thing that is called pain. It's not like a tumor, where there is concrete evidence of it. Medications work on pain, through trials and studies of subjects who report which pain medication eases their pain the best. Evidence is what you're thinking of. Trial and error is not proof. And so on. — L'éléphant
What we can't really show the floaters to others. Only accounts of people who've experienced them. — L'éléphant
I did not even imply that in any of my posts. Back at ya -- why should I prove to you that I'm awake?And why should one proof dreams? — EugeneW
You sound like the atheists who continue to request for proof, after making a claim that god does not exist. — L'éléphant
This mirrors @lll explanation as to why belief in god is special and unlike dreams and pains and all other things we claim without requiring proof. And again, I ask, why is the experience of god -- sensation of the holy ghost, or whatever it is one experiences with god --as a private sensation like dream or pain, something to be proven? Our dear lll said because belief in god had led to war, deaths and whatnot. Then, I say are we not misplacing the problem here?Probably because whether you dream or not has very little impact on yours and other's lives. — Philosophim
And you repeated it here.Because such a belief has a fundamental way of altering that person, and other people's lives. — Philosophim
I never said that belief in god frees one from responsibility. Hate against a group because god told you so is a responsibility that one has to answer to. The same way a person would act on a dream of end of the world -- this person has to answer to some authority if he acted badly.When you have divine guidance, there is no possibility of thinking, amending, or improving. If "Gays are evil" for example, you can't have a rational discussion with that person, as they feel like they are divinely correct, thus your mortal arguments are against God, ignorant, and sinful. This stunts people's growth and makes them emotional animals. Satisfying for the person, but can potentially be terrible for themselves and society. — Philosophim
Of course no one walks around with the kind of equipment needed to spot floaters :wink: - and - this does not affect your larger point. — EricH
Hate against a group because god told you so is a responsibility that one has to answer to. The same way a person would act on a dream of end of the world -- this person has to answer to some authority if he acted badly. — L'éléphant
That's why atheists want proof. Because belief in god can never be treated like how we treat self-evident pain, fear, and dreams. — L'éléphant
And again, I ask, why is the experience of god -- sensation of the holy ghost, or whatever it is one experiences with god --as a private sensation like dream or pain, something to be proven? — L'éléphant
It's a relief to me that someone groks the 'uselessness' of qualia I'm trying to sketch. It's so 'obvious' eventually and yet so absurd on the face of it. — lll
The later Wittgenstein only seems boring to those who aren't ready. What say you? — lll
Definitely. Back to the rough ground! — Luke
Science/Medicine has limits, it's fair to say. Dreams could run as long as an hour. If one could make a film of the dream while the subject is sleeping, then that's the proof of dreams. And we can't do that.That's it! There is no scientific evidence of what goes on inside of matter. Science can describe the outside but not the inside. — EugeneW
Good to bring this up. As with any definition of perception, which you've already handled well, how do we know perception exists? Because to argue against it, or to even doubt it, is perception itself. In other words, we can't talk our way out of our own mind and say it doesn't exist. That's the logical double bind for ya. Cartesian.It might seem odd to ask but how do we know perception exists? — Carlikoff
Science/Medicine has limits, it's fair to say. Dreams could run as long as an hour. If one could make a film of the dream while the subject is sleeping, then that's the proof of dreams. And we can't do that. — L'éléphant
If one could make a film of the dream while the subject is sleeping, then that's the proof of dreams. And we can't do that. — L'éléphant
As with any definition of perception, which you've already handled well, how do we know perception exists? Because to argue against it, or to even doubt it, is perception itself. In other words, we can't talk our way out of our own mind and say it doesn't exist. That's the logical double bind for ya. Cartesian. — L'éléphant
Then I could say the same thing with you -- all the things you post here are just your illusion and I'm under no obligation to respond to an illusion or delusion.That's no proof your perception exists. For all I know you don't have a perception of reality. How can you proof to me you see the world? — EugeneW
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