Nor Zelenskky. — FreeEmotion

According to rumors on the street, a couple Ukrainian mayors have already been napped and replaced by Russian puppets. If not for numerous onlookers and potential outrage/martyrdom, I'm guessing Zelenskyy would have been in constant mortal danger. He might still be, though, to some extent; sure ain't far-fetched.

On another note, if China gets involved by aiding Russia, then why not Europe, NATO, ...? Otherwise, it seems like another descent into Rule of the bully. Ukraine still isn't a member of NATO, like Putin demands.

Don’t know whether to put this here or in the Trump thread but oh well.

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2022/03/exclusive-kremlin-putin-russia-ukraine-war-memo-tucker-carlson-fox/

Treasonous c***t.

And I really, really hope Zelensky survives. I expect the worst but I will definitely shed a lot of tears if those bastards take him out.

And here is the reason never to vote for another president because all their decisions are always right as long as the right process was followed. — Benkei

Yes, we can now add legitimately sitting elected leaders to the list of people whose decisions we apparently ought never question.

It's little short of terrifying the way we lurch from crisis to crisis with each one being used as the latest excuse not to question the power of authority and the flow of wealth to the ever richer.

Although, frightening though that trend is, I suspect @Olivier5's latest manifestation of it was more a random grasping at post hoc rationalisation than any serious attempt at a global geopolitical strategy.

On another note, if China gets involved by aiding Russia, then why not Europe, NATO, ...? Otherwise, it seems like another descent into Rule of the bully. Ukraine still isn't a member of NATO, like Putin demands. — jorndoe

Yeah! Why not...let's have a fucking World War, we haven't had one in ages, it'd be laugh. Poking Putin with a big stick for 20 seems to have finally got him on board with the idea, let's see if we can't get Jinping on board too. Bagsies on the B61-12.

:

Ukraine still isn't a member of NATO, like Putin demands.

Invaders set the tempo. They do as they please, or they're stopped. Maybe you hope they'll stop by themselves, just a bit of collateral damage?

let's have a fucking World War — Isaac

No, let's not. (You can stop drooling now. :smile:)

You're saying as long as the election was good, you don't question the decisions of elected leaders. — Isaac

That's a lie.

I am saying that I respect the legitimacy of Zelensky, that he is in charge of a country at war, and that I don't want his job. I will respect his strategic choices. I am not going to question his decisions from the confort of my living room. I have no information, no legitimacy and little interest in second guessing him. From what I can see, he is doing a fantastic job.

Now, does that explain my taking side, or do you still not understand?

I love the way you lie to yourself, adding layers after layers of BS to your own ideas, like a master painter would add layers and layers of paint to canvas. Very creative!

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2022/03/exclusive-kremlin-putin-russia-ukraine-war-memo-tucker-carlson-fox/ — Wayfarer

Just saw this, also on Mother Jones:

Report: Putin Threatened to Arrest Google Exec Over Pro-Democracy App (Mar 12, 2022)

It's a trend.

Invaders set the tempo. — jorndoe

Yep, and Elvis is still alive too apparently

Lest anyone's in any doubt whose agenda you're all slavishly promoting

Speaking to investors on Tuesday, two of the biggest U.S. weapons manufacturers provided estimates on how the U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan, a war that cost U.S. taxpayers over $2 trillion and took over 243,000 lives, impacted their bottom lines. Both companies also expressed enthusiasm about a bipartisan push to increase the 2022 defense budget by $29.3 billion, a five percent increase over the 2021 budget and more than $10 billion more than President Biden requested.

Approximately half of the defense budget goes to contractors like Lockheed Martin and Raytheon, both of whom explained to investors how the end of a 20 year war will impact their profits while still painting a rosy picture of ballooning defense spending driving corporate revenue and padding the bottomline for shareholders. — https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2021/10/27/weapons-execs-lament-losses-from-afghanistan-exit-tout-dod-budget-increase/

Oh dear, withdrawing from the war in Afghanistan looks like it's going to hit the bottom line...But wait...

Lockheed Martin, in particular, wants to use the “great power competition” [with China] framing to move forward a $4.4 billion acquisition of rocket engine manufacturer Aerojet Rocketdyne, a move that U.S. antitrust regulators are currently reviewing. — https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2021/03/29/lockheed-cites-great-power-competition-with-china-in-bid-to-consolidate-engine-market/

Phew...Tensions with China have 'come along entirely at random' to save the day... But will they be enough...?

But if you look at [defense budget growth] — and it’s evident each day that goes by. If you look at the evolving threat level and the approach that some countries are taking, including North Korea, Iran and through some of its proxies in Yemen and elsewhere, and especially Russia today, these days, and China, there’s renewed great power competition that does include national defense and threats to it. And the history of [the] United States is when those environments evolve, that we do not sit by and just watch it happen. So I can’t talk to a number, but I do think and I’m concerned personally that the threat is advancing, and we need to be able to meet it. — Lockheed CEO James Taiclet

Well, what stroke of luck...

Oh and if @Wayfarer's still adding to his "Treasonous c***t" collection

[W]e are seeing, I would say, opportunities for international sales. We just have to look to last week where we saw the drone attack in the UAE, which have attacked some of their other facilities. And of course, the tensions in Eastern Europe, the tensions in the South China Sea, all of those things are putting pressure on some of the defense spending over there. So I fully expect we’re going to see some benefit from it. — Raytheon CEO Greg Hayes

Tensions in Eastern Europe, really! Who'd have thought it...

For anyone with any kind of shred of human dignity who can't believe their eyes, I'll confirm - yes, the CEO of Raytheon did indeed just refer to the prospect of multiple wars as "opportunities for international sales".

Mother Jones’ coverage seems pretty good. Lots of first-person reporting.

if China gets involved by aiding Russia, then why not Europe, NATO, ...? — jorndoe

Europe and the US are aiding Ukraine alright

@Isaac is worse than a crank, he is a serial liar and a very angry one, at that. It is as if he was shocked first and foremost by the Ukrainian resistance, or by our moral support to the Ukrainian resistance. But as I said it is perfectly natural to root for the aggressed, and in fact there is something bizarro in his "surrender already" attitude.

It is as if he was shocked first and foremost by the Ukrainian resistance, or by our moral support to the Ukrainian resistance. — Olivier5

Ahh, such a tough guy adding your "moral support" to the fight.

Neither @Isaac nor my position is "surrender already", but to do diplomacy in a credible way, in particular the EU.

For example, I've already explained many times that only Ukrainian commanders know their military prospects and if further loss of life is justifiable.

However, what we can know is that Mariupole, a port city, is easily evacuated by boat and the EU could, at least try, to negotiate that ... but it doesn't. So, we can be pretty certain that diplomacy is not a priority to avoid further loss of life but that further bloodshed is desired on all sides, certainly the Russian side too, but also the EU, NATO and US actions are consistent with both desiring and doing everything possible to have more bloodshed and actively avoiding any actions that would reduce bloodshed (such as negotiate evacuation of port cities ... by fucking boat).

I'm still not talking about capitalism, that's what you brought up. — Christoffer

You literally say:

Yet, Scandinavia's free market system is still capitalism. — Christoffer

So, what are you talking about?

I am saying that I respect the legitimacy of Zelensky, that he is in charge of a country at war, and that I don't want his job. I will respect his strategic choices. I am not going to question his decisions from the confort of my living room. I have no information, no legitimacy and little interest in second guessing him. From what I can see, he is doing a fantastic job. — Olivier5

I hope he does his job and makes decisions that favor Ukraine's well being, present and future.
Does anyone see any other rational choice than to agree to stop fighting? From what we can see, it seems a good idea, but we may not have all the inputs he has.

So what possible reasons would a rational human being have to keep fighting at this point? We are discussing reason, not Ukraine now.

Mariupole, a port city, is easily evacuated by boat and the EU could, at least try, to negotiate that ... but it doesn't. — boethius

Why the EU? Why not China or Zimbabwe do that? What's the unsaid assumption here?

And the Russians are not letting civilians leave the city by road. Why do you assume they will allow a sea evacuation? Their game is to kill civilians as a way to pressure Ukraine. They want civilians dying in Mariupol. That be why they bomb them...

Yep, and it's not limited to external agents either...

Think tanks were contacted more than 1,100 times by Ukraine’s agents [Yorktown Solutions, Agents representing the Ukrainian Federation of Employers of the Oil and Gas Industry], and more than half of these were directed at one in particular: the Atlantic Council. This extraordinary outreach included multiple meetings with Atlantic Council scholars, like ex-U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine John Herbst, who has advocated for a more militarized approach to Russia amid the Ukraine crisis. Herbst recently told NPR that President Joe Biden should “send more weapons to Ukraine now. By all means, get additional U.S. and NATO forces up along Russia’s border.” Herbst was also at the center of an Atlantic Council kerfuffle last March, when he and 21 other Atlantic Council staff signed a letter opposing the work of two Atlantic Council colleagues who suggested a restraint-based approach to dealing with Russia.

The Atlantic Council has also launched “UkraineAlert” which publishes daily pieces on deterring Russia. A recent article, “Survey: Western public backs stronger support for Ukraine against Russia,” notes the survey in question was commissioned by the Victor Pinchuk Foundation and Yalta European Strategy, which Pinchuk founded; however, the article does not mention that the foundation is a large contributor to the Atlantic Council, donating $250,000-499,000 a year, or that Pinchuk himself — the second wealthiest man in Ukraine — sits on the international advisory board of the Atlantic Council.

After the Atlantic Council, the hawkish Heritage Foundation was the second most contacted think tank by Ukraine’s agents. Heritage has consistently pushed for militarized solutions to the Russia-Ukraine crisis and was contacted 180 times throughout 2021 by Ukraine’s agents. This outreach was targeted at high-level Heritage experts, like Heritage Vice President James Carafano, who has repeatedly belittled U.S. diplomatic efforts related to Ukraine. — https://theintercept.com/2022/02/11/ukraine-lobby-congress-russia/

So what possible reasons would a rational human being have to keep fighting at this point? — FreeEmotion

Courage?

As long as it kills all the humans, that's correct. — frank

With the war slowly escalating global nuclear war is becoming more likely each day. The advantage of nuclear war over environmental destruction is that nuclear destruction is quicker to solve the environmental human infestation problem. — magritte

Nuclear war wouldn't kill us all, and at some point continued environmental destruction would, by definition, kill us all as we need an environment to live.

Of course, Nuclear war would also be highly damaging to the environment, so a double edge sword to deal with environmental issues. I don't think we're at that point yet, but if we let the environment continue to degrade, the social chaos this will lead to, in my opinion, will inevitably cause a nuclear war. We're this close already ... and there's not even a global famine (at least not disrupting the countries that have Nukes).

But this seems off topic, could make an interesting other thread though; certainly brings the high stakes of global ecological catastrophe to useful comparison.

For your information, there is a documentary on interviewing Putin available online, also a documentary on Ukraine.

It might contain useful information, like CNN news, or it might offend you, in any case here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5mFuDu70z4

Much of what is there can be fact checked. The importance thing is not to accept it as truth, but use it as a starting point for looking for it.

Courage? — Olivier5

Courage has to have a reason for its exercise. What do you want to achieve with your courage?

You're saying as long as the election was good, you don't question the decisions of elected leaders.
— Isaac

That's a lie.

I am saying that I respect the legitimacy of Zelensky, that he is in charge of a country at war, and that I don't want his job. I will respect his strategic choices. I am not going to question his decisions from the confort of my living room. I have no information, no legitimacy and little interest in second guessing him. From what I can see, he is doing a fantastic job.

Now, does that explain my taking side, or do you still not understand? — Olivier5

I love the way you lie to yourself, adding layers after layers of BS to your own ideas, like a master painter would add layers and layers of paint to canvas. Very creative! — Olivier5

The guy lies and misrepresents others' positions all the time, using sarcastic aggression to do so.
Carried along by his own apparent obsessions; to score points and win an argument.
I had intended to stay out of this, and will probably regret this post.
However, I have something to say; inspired by you and others, thanks.
( propaganda art and media portrayal, perhaps too 'rosy' for some)

***
Painting pictures of war, the creative spirit is eternal. Same issues. Different perspectives.
I was linked to this Assyrian wall relief, by a good friend.
Commissioned by the victors. Note the refugees:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oP_G7_4jMk

One shocking photograph of the Ukrainian war circulated around the world:
https://www.euronews.com/2022/03/09/ukraine-war-airstrike-hits-mariupol-maternity-hospital-17-reported-hurt

A Russian airstrike devastated a maternity hospital Wednesday in the besieged port city of Mariupol amid growing warnings from the West that Moscow’s invasion is about to take a more brutal and indiscriminate turn.
The ground shook more than a mile away when the Mariupol complex was hit by a series of blasts that blew out windows and ripped away much of the front of one building. Police and soldiers rushed to the scene to evacuate victims, carrying out a heavily pregnant and bleeding woman on a stretcher. *

It reminded me of this painting:
https://www.dailyartmagazine.com/wounded-angel-by-hugo-simberg/
'The procession passes through a recognizable landscape, that of Eläintarha, Helsinki, with Töölönlahti Bay in the background. The pathway along Töölönlahti Bay remains there to this day. In Hugo Simberg’s time, the park was a spot popular among the working classes for leisure-time activities. At the time, many charity institutions were located in Eläintarha park;
in The Wounded Angel the healthy boys are carrying the injured girl towards the Blind Girls’ School and the Home for Cripples.She clutches a bunch of snowdrops, symbolic of healing and rebirth.'

----------

* Update:

The woman was rushed to another hospital where doctors laboured to keep her alive. Medics delivered the baby via cesarean section, but it showed “no signs of life”, surgeon Timur Marin said.

“More than 30 minutes of resuscitation of the mother didn’t produce results,” Marin said on Saturday. “Both died.”
— Guardian: Russia-Ukraine War Latest News

How would Putin depict that on his wall of shame? He wouldn't.

Let the snowdrops grow...for some kind of a re-birth.
But I fear the philosophy of politics, the history of war, hardly gives one hope for the future.
Courage, mes amis :victory:

Why the EU? Why not China or Zimbabwe do that? What's the unsaid assumption here? — Olivier5

They should too.

This is classic whataboutism.

The reason to focus on EU / NATO and US policy is because:

A. They have the most leverage with Russia currently. Russia's top demand in Ukraine doesn't join NATO and so NATO has what Russia wants. Likewise, the sanctions are from the US and EU and the whole point of sanctions, diplomatically, is to create leverage. Germany can open the second pipeline that would be good for Germany, Russia and the entire EU.

B. These parties nominally claim and have voters who not only claim but actually believe, unnecessary loss of life should be avoided, and so criticising people who claim to want to do something ... but aren't, is a lot more productive than criticising parties that make no such claims. If you look at India and Africa media: a pretty strong theme is that this is a white person problem that white people are crying about and not their issue, go fuck yourselves (certainly a stronger theme than in the Western Media).

Now, if you want more carnage and want a 20 year insurgency for Russia to deal with as that would be some sort of "cold war 2 win" than say so. If you care about Ukrainians then you should want the best resolution possible to Ukrainians.

More fighting could help get Ukrainians a better deal ... or it could make it that the deal must be worse for Russia to justify the further loss of life that Ukraine insists on. "Morally supporting" Ukraine losing lives, traumatising children (and everyone else), losing homes and livelihoods, to "stick it to the Russians" is not helping Ukrainians, it is harming the Russians with Ukrainians as a tool to do so.

Maybe Ukrainians have a way to "win" the war with only handheld weapons, and maybe we'll see that.

However, distributing small arms to civilians is just distributing random death to visit those civilians. Media complained of a mortar attack on civilians ... but a guy with a riffle was literally in the foreground of that video (the subject of the videographer).

Professional soldiers would not just wander around a civilian area in range of mortar fire. Professional soldiers will try to keep the fighting away from civilians even at some risk to themselves.

So, this policy is a bloodlust policy with zero military benefit.

Likewise, not trying to evacuate civilians from coastal areas ... by a fucking boat, is a bloodlust policy.

Neither of these policies are Russian. Obviously, Russia has bloodlust too driving their policies, but they at least make reasonable offers that are preferable to further blood being spilt at each step. If US, Nato, EU and Ukraine had counter proposals that are "more reasonable" then they could credibly blame Russia for everything.

Fact of the matter is, one Azov brigade, from my point of view, can easily justify invading a country to destroy the entire armed forces and institutional structure that tolerates an Azov brigade. This argument is, as far as I can see, completely valid one.

It would be Putin appeasing these neo-Nazi's by not invading, not us appeasing Putin by not-pumpin-weapons into Ukraine that we don't care enough to have join Nato or send any troops to defend.

And, the military support to Ukraine during the civil war phase was predicated on an "officially" Azov brigade wasn't doing any fighting, but journalists went and demonstrated that to be false. The West was supporting neo-Nazi's fighting a war. I don't actually like neo-Nazi's, Putin simply has a point on this particular issue, which has been documented by the Wests own media since 2014.

Freedom of the press?

What a bizarre post. In the latter half you graphically depict how gruesome and appalling war is, what a tragic impact it's having on the Ukrainians... Yet in the first half you support those looking to continue the war and condemn those advocating stopping it immediately.

So which is it? Is war the bloody nightmare to be avoided at all costs, or is it a necessary tool, to make sure Putin is put in his place - the death and destroyed lives merely unfortunate but necessary collateral damage?

It's just...

"Morally supporting" Ukraine losing lives, traumatising children (and everyone else), losing homes and livelihoods, to "stick it to the Russians" is not helping Ukrainians, it is harming the Russians with Ukrainians as a tool to do so. — boethius

What a bizarre post. — Isaac

Your eyes are clouded. Your vision distorted. Your 'So which is it?' questions ridiculous.
I've no more to say to you.

What do you care soooo much about my reasons? — Olivier5

On a philosophy forum? Caring about someone’s reasoning? How strange! :D

The reason to focus on EU / NATO and US policy is because:

A. They have the most leverage with Russia currently. — boethius

That is simply false. China has greater leverage right now.

B. These parties nominally claim and have voters who not only claim but actually believe, unnecessary loss of life should be avoided, and so criticising people who claim to want to do something ... but aren't, is a lot more productive than criticising parties that make no such claims. If you look at India and Africa media: a pretty strong theme is that this is a white person problem that white people are crying about and not their issue, go fuck yourselves (certainly a stronger theme than in the Western Media). — boethius

So the Chinese don't care about Mariupol as much as, say, the Finns, so the Finns should either stop caring, or send a boat to evacuate Mariupol? Otherwise the Finns implement "a bloodlust policy"?

Mmmmokay.

Do you care about the civilians in Mariupol? If yes, why don't you charter a boat and go save them, you bloodlust politician?

Maybe Ukrainians have a way to "win" the war with only handheld weapons, and maybe we'll see that. — boethius

They have anti-aircraft batteries, a few planes left, some armor and artillery. They are not done yet.

The guy lies and misrepresents others' positions all the time, using sarcastic aggression to do so. — Amity

His passive aggressive tone is getting old. It's also a bit disgusting to debate the Putin trolls here, so I think you do well to stay out of it. It's like fighting a pig in the mud.

But I fear the philosophy of politics, the history of war, hardly gives one hope for the future. — Amity

I think it does. European history is full of war AND PEACE.

hopes of diplomatic progress were raised after Russia and Ukraine gave positive assessments after weekend negotiations.

“Russia is already beginning to talk constructively,” Ukrainian negotiator Mykhailo Podolyak said in a video online. “I think that we will achieve some results literally in a matter of days.”

A Russian delegate to the talks, Leonid Slutsky, was quoted by the RIA news agency as saying they had made significant progress and it was possible the delegations could soon reach draft agreements. Neither side said what these would cover.

(The Guardian today)

European history is full of war AND PEACE. — Olivier5

Baroque Music for War and Peace in Europe during XVII Century -- Jordi Savall conducts Hesperion XXI Capella Reial Catalunya / Concert des Nations.

From the start of 30 Years War (1613) to the Peace of Utrecht (1713).



0:00:00 1613 Attack of Hungary by the Ottoman Empire -- Turkish March (Anonymous)
0:04:00 1614 Massacre of Jews in Frankfurt -- Complaint in Aramaic
0:06:35 1618 Start of 30 years War -- Samuel Scheidt: Gaillarde Battaglia
0:10:13 1624 Spanish Siege to Breda -- Lope de Vega
0:13:40 1635 Peace of Prague -- Johann Hermann Schein: Zion Spricht
0:20:02 1636 Richelieu War Declaration against Spain -- Philidor: Pavane pour la Petite Guerre
0:24:44 1645 War of the Ottoman Empire against Venice -- Dimitrie Cantemir
0:28:44 1648 End of 30 Years War -- Johann Rosenmueller: Siehe an die Werke Gottes
0:35:48 1645 Civil War in England -- John Jenkins: The Newark Siege
0:42:30 1659 Pyrenees Peace -- Jean Baptiste Lully: Jubilate Deo
1:00:10 1669 Venetians Expelled from Crete -- Dimitrie Cantemir
1:03:30 1669 Venetians Expelled from Crete -- Francesco Cavalli: Requiem
1:08:37 1678 Nimegue Treaty -- Jean Baptiste Lully: March from Armide
1:12:40 1697 Ryswick Peace -- John Blow: Praise the Lord
1:18:10 1700 War for Spanish Succession -- Joan Cabanilles: Battalla Imperial
1:24:08 1711 War of Ottoman Empire against Russia -- Vasily Titov
1:29:22 1711 War of Ottoman Empire against Russia -- Dimitrie Cantemir
1:31:48 1713 Utrecht Peace -- Handel Jubilate
Encore:
1:37:58 Arvo Part: Da Pacem Domine