I am responsible for my posts; and I am also responsible for all the posts I think better of and do not post. This means i am responsible for your replies too, in the same way that I am responsible for my children breaking your window, or becoming fanatics and starting a war. There is no end to my responsibility; I am responsible for every starving child and every idiot politician. I should be more careful.

I am my brother's keeper. — unenlightened

Man, that was a weird post. Not really relevant with the topic either .Since it would fit better to an discussion about responsibility in general, I think. Surprised since your posts are always to the point and your opinion interesting.

I was reading it all that stuff for responsibility and thinking one after another "okay, so about thoughts?.. Ok, and thoughts?.. Hmm okkkk man tell me about what you think about thoughts responsibility?? Are we or not responsible for them?Just tell me!" and at the end you left me with my dick in my hand.You are definitely responsible for that.. Hahaha
.

Ah yes, I forgot to mention, I do generally post things I have thought.

I hoped to provoke folks to consider all sorts of situations where we commonly talk about responsibility. The question itself is a bit pants really, though, as though one would only be responsible for things one could totally be in control of, which is nothing at all. It is fairly obvious that one is socialised and indoctrinated and educated in ways one has no control over. but one is still responsible for what one does with the fascistic fundamentalist bullshit one is immersed in from birth - who else is going to deal with it?

as though one would only be responsible for things one could totally be in control of, which is nothing at all. It is fairly obvious that one is socialised and indoctrinated and educated in ways one has no control over. but one is still responsible for what one does with the fascistic fundamentalist bullshit one is immersed in from birth - who else is going to deal with it? — unenlightened

Well yeah, but there are things that we are totally responsible for. Many others not.Our words and actions are some of them, but thoughts aren't.

You mention ".. then someone would be responsible to whatever totally be in control of".Well no. Even if he has "some" control in anything (not necessarily totally at all) then he is also "some" responsible for that .How big is that "some control" decides also how big his part of responsibility would be.

But with thoughts there isn't that "some" even. You have totally no control at all over their generation. They are "enforced" to you from your unconscious mind.
To filter them, ignore them, judge them and so on via your consciousness mind, then yes you are responsible for that. As to lead in your words and actions.
But for their birth or for their content, well no I don't think anyone should be held responsible for that. Despite how crazy or sinful might be. No one should be considered responsible for anything that has totally none control over it. It is unfair, imo at least.

I choose my thoughts, but find it strange that this act requires no thought. I'm gonna think something silly now, orangutan pie.

Does anybody else think that's weird?

Far more than anyone else.

Well yeah, but there are things that we are totally responsible for. Many others not.Our words and actions are some of them, but thoughts aren't. — dimosthenis9

Are your words and actions not the expression of your thoughts? Mine are. That was my first post, that i am responsible for their expression and non-expression in the same way that I am responsible for my children. Thoughts are like children, and need to be guided and looked after and occasionally restrained from doing foolish, dangerous, or hurtful things.

Every awareness in the world is responsible for the world it is aware of. Here is a challenge; what is your response?

Are your words and actions not the expression of your thoughts? Mine are — unenlightened

Yeah of course they are. But I think the actual question of the thread was about thoughts on their own and their content.Not what we do with them. But if we are responsible for what comes into our mind.About what we do with them of course we are responsible for.

Every awareness in the world is responsible for the world it is aware of. Here is a challenge; what is your response? — unenlightened

I m not sure I got this.I guess it's a rhetorical question.

Every awareness in the world is responsible for the world it is aware of. Here is a challenge; what is your response?
— unenlightened

I m not sure I got this. — dimosthenis9

I express a thought as follows: "Every awareness in the world is responsible for the world it is aware of."

You become aware of it, and you respond. ( you could have responded by ignoring it, that is often a good response) You express vague interest and puzzlement. Either way, in your response or ignoring, you become (somewhat) responsible for what follows, ie this response to you. Which means, as should have been obvious from the beginning, that in communication, we become responsible for each other's thoughts.

Likewise, if you become aware that your neighbour is beating his wife, you are responsible for for letting it continue or doing something about it. This is simply what awareness is for; responding to the world responsibly - which is to say, with the intention to make the world better.

Thus philosophy is the very queen of professions; for there is no better way of making the world better than by increasing awareness.

Ok now I got what you mean. But I m not so sure about that part

that in communication, we become responsible for each other's thoughts. — unenlightened

I m responsible for what I say and do, not about what others think. If for example express a simple opinion and someone gets offended cause he is idiot, lunatic or his mind is fucked up in general am I responsible for that? Can I predict or control anyone's thoughts while I communicate with them?

responding to the world responsibly - which is to say, with the intention to make the world better. — unenlightened

What if someone doesn't have the intention to make the world a better place? He doesn't harm anyone but just mind his own business not giving a fuck about improving the world? Can you blame him for not doing that?

Personally I don't think I could blame him. At the end can we expect from anyone to be a "hero" and save the world? Or care about it? What I do demand from everyone though, is not to harm others with their attitude and cause problems to others lives intentionally. That I demand it,but caring to make world a better place? Hmm..it would be really good if he did but not bad either If he didn't, imo at least.

Miscommunication (therefore misunderstanding) between people is inescapable ... I guess? — 180 Proof

1. Nothing exists;

2. Even if something exists, nothing can be known about it;

and

3. Even if something can be known about it, knowledge about it can't be communicated to others.

4. Even if it can be communicated, it cannot be understood. — Gorgias

:fire:

If we were not responsible for our own thoughts then the statement "I am thinking this thought now" would be false. If it is false, then so is logic, science, and everything else predicated on thought. Since logic and science appear not to be false, it seems that we must be responsible for our own thoughts.

I m responsible for what I say and do, — dimosthenis9

Well if you are not responsible for your upbringing, your thoughts, and therefore what you do and say are influenced by others as parents teachers media moguls, priests politicians. I don't see how one can maintain that we do not influence each other's thinking by our speech and other actions, in which case we are partially responsible for each other's thoughts. I call you an idiot, and I am responsible for what happens next, which is you having an angry thought and maybe saying something unpleasant back to me, or kicking the cat, or whatever. and then folks will read it and they too will be influenced to some extent. "No man is an island ..."

I'm not thinking! Seriously! This isn't thinking, I tell you, it just isn't.

I don't see how one can maintain that we do not influence each other's thinking by our speech and other actions, in which case we are partially responsible for each other's thoughts. — unenlightened

We do influence others by our actions and words. I don't object on that. But the crucial word here I think is "partially". We can never be sure what others will think on their own head by our actions or words and we can't always be held responsible for that.

For example in cases like that

I call you an idiot, and I am responsible for what happens next, which is you having an angry thought and maybe saying something unpleasant back to me, or kicking the cat, or whatever — unenlightened

Yeah it's crystal clear that I m responsible for calling you that way and what follows next. But not all cases are like that. There are many many grey zones where things aren't that clear.

For example I tell you "I like the way your girlfriend dresses" and then your mind goes "oh so he has a crush on my girl?! Oh damn that mother fucker and he was supposed to be my friend. Fuck off I will teach him a lesson". Am I responsible for that other person's complex that leaded into his thoughts and possible actions? It's not always clear the line of responsibility I should take for others thoughts and actions.

Here's when I'm not responsible for my thoughts in my brain/mind/whatever! :point: When you put it there! :grin:

You seem to be assuming that conscious is inextricably linked to some brain actives of which no reliable correlates have been found — Andrew4Handel

We know what systems of the body and regions of the brain consciousness is not inextricably linked to by process of elimination. When we use metabolic neural activity to measure such things we find that if , for instance , only the cerebellum is highly active there is no report of consciousness by the subject. The same is true when we isolate many other brain regions. So what areas of the brain are correlated with waking experience?

“ One of the central questions in neuroscience is clarifying where in the brain consciousness, which is the ability to experience internal and external sensations, arises. In the journal Neuron, researchers report that a specific area in the brain, the central lateral thalamus, appears to play a key role. In monkeys under anesthesia, stimulating this area was enough to wake the animals and elicit normal waking behaviors.

Previous studies, including EEG and fMRI studies in humans, had suggested that certain areas of the brain, including the parietal cortex and the thalamus, appear to be involved in consciousness.“

For example I tell you "I like the way your girlfriend dresses" and then your mind goes "oh so he has a crush on my girl?! Oh damn that mother fucker and he was supposed to be my friend. Fuck off I will teach him a lesson". Am I responsible for that other person's complex that leaded into his thoughts and possible actions? It's not always clear the line of responsibility I should take for others thoughts and actions. — dimosthenis9

Well you weren't to know I am the paranoid suspicious controlling type. :rage: This is kind of close to blaming the victim and I certainly don't want to even hint at going there, even if you did know what I'm like. Fortunately there is a big difference between being responsible and being to blame. The paramedic is responsible for keeping folks alive until the doctor arrives, but she is not necessarily to blame for deaths in her care, unless she made a serious blunder.

Now you know my foibles though, you would be well advised to reassure me that your comment was just a queer eye'd sartorial appreciation, or some such.

You become aware of it, and you respond. ( you could have responded by ignoring it, that is often a good response) You express vague interest and puzzlement. Either way, in your response or ignoring, you become (somewhat) responsible for what follows, ie this response to you. Which means, as should have been obvious from the beginning, that in communication, we become responsible for each other's thoughts. — unenlightened

If the root of responsibility is the response, that is , our moment to moment interactions with others and the moment to moment changes in our thinking , willing and feeling, then to understand responsibility requires a model of the nature and organization of thinking, willing and feeling.
The moral question of personal responsibility thus rests on our understanding of the nature of agency and philosophies of the self, the ‘I’.

Beyond the question of free will vs determinism are all sorts of contemporary issues concerning what sort of causative model describes cognition and affect.

For instance, how are we responsible for other’s thoughts? It depends on whether you are a behaviorist, classical cognitivist , phenomenologist or postmodern social constructionist. Each of these approaches gives us a different answer. Within cognitive
science there are differing views of the self and our ability to recognize other minds.

My preference is the phenomenological perspective, which rejects the model
of objective causation and thus the idea that our thinking
is socially and affectively conditioned in a causative way , and that brainwashing is a thing.
Phenomenology instead argues that there is a thematic unity and intimate self-belonging i. our thinking and feeling from moment to moment. We never simply introject meanings and values from the culture , but instead interpret according to our interpretive schemes.

Now you know my foibles though, you would be well advised to reassure me that your comment was just a queer eye'd sartorial appreciation, or some such. — unenlightened

Well I m not sure what you are asking me here to reassure you about. That you aren't blaming the victim? If that's what you ask me, we'll then no you don't and I never got this meaning about your previous post either. Or are you talking about that supposing "paranoid guy" that would confuse my opinion as a crush on his girl??

In any case, my example was one of many cases as to demonstrate that you can't always be responsible for what others will think and do about you words and actions. Just to point out that there are many grey zones.
At the end we can't be inside anyone's head and predict all the outcomes that our words and actions will bring to him.

you can't always be responsible for what others will think and do about you words and actions. — dimosthenis9

Well I am saying you can always be responsible for whatever you are aware of but that does not mean you are to blame for it.

Thus I am aware that my prime minister, Boris Johnson, is incapable of telling the truth, and I therefore respond to what he says as information about his fantasy of what he wishes folk to think is true. This means I am in effect ungoverned. This is the shit I have to deal with in my life; it is my responsibility.

At the end we can't be inside anyone's head and predict all the outcomes that our words and actions will bring to him. — dimosthenis9

We can't predict everything but we can often predict some things. Whereof one is unaware, thereof one is not responsible.

For instance, how are we responsible for other’s thoughts? It depends on whether you are a behaviorist, classical cognitivist , phenomenologist or postmodern social constructionist. — Joshs

You are telling me this, therefore you are to some extent responsible for what I make of it. I cannot see how my or your general psychological/philosophical 'ism changes the fact?

Well I am saying you can always be responsible for whatever you are aware of but that does not mean you are to blame for it. — unenlightened

Whereof one is unaware, thereof one is not responsible. — unenlightened

Sounds fair.

Daniel Dennett's theories of consciousness and the self won me over in undergrad.
our thoughts are ultimately a string of narrative spewing from our brain
so we ultimately are our thoughts, there is no self outside of those thoughts

it's definitely a rabbit hole that erodes some fundamental concepts that societal structures depend on, like self, free will, responsibility...

"I" try not to think about it too much