Absent pain is indeed good, but it is always good for someone, just as pleasure is good when it is good for someone. — Bartricks
es. The point, though, is that it would be good for someone.
Or are you asking if absence of pain would be good even if no one exists? In that case, no - for the reasons given in the OP. — Bartricks
I am not denying it would be good if no one was experiencing pain. The point is that it would be good for someone, namely the person whose valuing of something constitutively determines that it has moral value. — Bartricks
Benatar is assuming that there can be moral value in the absence of any and all valuers. And that makes no sense. — Bartricks
And yeah, people who exist can certainly be a source of value for others, but it would still be preferable to avoid lives that are bound to be mostly negative — DA671
I think Benatar's asymmetry holds water — Cuthbert
It's true that only the existent can experience goods and bads. — DA671
Regarding the ""asymmetry", it doesn't make sense to suggest that people who haven't done any good/bad don't "deserve" to suffer (which is why it would be good to prevent harm, which in turn would imply that they "deserve" to not suffer), but they somehow don't deserve to be happy (since they haven't done anything that justifies not creating that good) — DA671
We do have a positive reason to create good (though that might be mitigated by other factors) just as we might have reasons to not create harm. — DA671
Your argument implies that one needs to have done something good in order to deserve happiness, but if that's the case, then one could also say that they need to have done something worthwhile in order to deserve the prevention of harm (and the people who would have valuable lives need to have done something harmful if they apparently deserve to not experience potential joy). — DA671
The claim that seems to imply that we do not deserve happiness because we haven't done anything moral, but we somehow deserve the prevention of suffering even though we haven't done anything good to justify that either. — DA671
It isn't question begging. I am only pointing out that there isn't a sufficient reason to treat the harms and benefits differently. — DA671
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