• Bartricks
    6k
    I am an antinatalist. There are lots of arguments for the thesis. But I think a very prominent argument for it - the most discussed in the literature - is bad: Benatar's argument.

    In his book "Better Never to Have Been", David Benatar defends a supposed asymmetry between harm and benefit and appeals to this asymmetry in making his case for antinatalism (the view that we ought not procreate). But I think it's really bad - I think there are at least three problems with it: the asymmetry he posits has no explanatory value; the asymmetry he posits is incoherent; and finally the asymmetry implies procreation is bad if we do not pre-exist, but not bad if we do, whereas intuitively it should make no difference either way (that is, whether antinatalism is true or false, it should not turn crucially on whether we pre-exist or not - yet Benatar's argument makes it so).

    Benatar's asymmetry

    Benatar argues that absent harm is good, even when there is no one for whom it is good. By contrast, absent benefit, thinks Benatar, is not bad unless there is someone for whom it is a deprivation.
    So, the asymmetry is that the goodness of absent pain does not need a subject - there does not need to be anyone for whom it is good. By contrast, the badness of absent benefit does require there to be a subject - a someone for whom its absence is an deprivation. Thus, absent pain is good, but absent pleasure is not bad.

    That asymmetry is not self-evident to reason. That is, it is not intuitive in the way that, say, 2 + 3 = 5 is. As such it needs to be motivated in some way - we need some justification for thinking it is real.

    Benatar recognizes this and motivates it by arguing that its reality is the best explanation of our rational intuitions about certain cases. For instance, imagine it is true that if Sue and Dave procreate, their offspring will have lives of total agony and then die. Well, it seems self-evident to reason that they ought not procreate. By contrast, imagine that if Mr and Mrs Bartricks breed, any child they have will be very happy. Well, it seems self-evident to reason that Mr and Mrs Batricks do no wrong if they refrain from procreating. So, it seems that we have a positive obligation not to create miserable lives, yet no positive obligation to create happy ones. Benatar takes this to be obvious - and i agree, it is - and says the asymmetry between benefit and harm explains it. For the absent suffering is good (and thus Sue and Dave do good by not procreating), whereas the absent happiness that Mr and Mrs Bartricks' decision not to procreate creates is not bad.

    First problem

    Our intuitions about the miserable life and happy life cases are asymmetrical and this is why they cry out for explanation. However, all Benatar does by way of explanation is appeal to a supposedly more general asymmetry which these intuitions reflect. How's that any kind of explanation? The asymmetry that Benatar is appealing to also cries out for explanation. Indeed, it is not really a distinct asymmetry - it is, by hypothesis, the same asymmetry, as our intuitions about the happy and miserable life cases are supposed simply to be reflective of it. So it doesn't really begin to be an explanation. It's akin to me asking "how does this watch work?" and receiving the answer "well, it is a particular instance of a watch from a company that makes working watches. Its watches work - it is known as the working-watch-company for a reason - and this is a watch". So, the first problem is that it is no explanation at all. You can't explain an asymmetry by just supposing it to be an instance of a more general asymmetry that itself requires explanation. (And Benatar can't deny that the asymmetry needs explaining - for if it didn't need explaining in the miserable and happy life cases, then his asymmetry is wholly unmotivated).

    Second problem

    The asymmetry he is proposing is incoherent. This is because absent harm cannot be good if there is no one for whom it is good. If a state of affairs is good, then it is morally valuable - that's true by definition. But something cannot be morally valuable if it is not valued. Where there is value, there needs to be a valuer. The idea that there can be moral value without any valuers seems every bit as confused as thinking that there can exist suffering without any sufferers. Thus, for anything to be morally valuable, there needs to be at least one person who is valuing its being as it is. And whatever it is, that state of affairs will then be good 'for' that person. Thus, there is no such asymmetry. Absent pain is indeed good, but it is always good for someone, just as pleasure is good when it is good for someone. In a world devoid of subjects, nothing would be good or bad. To put it another way, Benatar's asymmetry assumes the truth of some kind of moral objectivism about moral value, a view that is incoherent.

    Third problem

    If we pre-exist, then the asymmetry does not apply to procreative acts. So, Benatar's case for antinatalism only applies if procreative acts literally summon a person into existence. If instead procreative acts transfer an already existent person from elsewhere to here - which for all we know, they may well do - then it does not apply. Yet intuitively that should surely make no difference? Granted, if we had some reason to think that, 'if' people pre-exist, then they exist in a state of agony, or a state of great pleasure, then plausibly this would make a great difference to the morality of procreation. But in the absence of any reason to think that pre-existent life is better than, worse than, or the same as life here, then our pre-existence should make no difference to the morality of procreation - yet Benatar's argument implies otherwise. So much the worse for his argument, then.
  • Down The Rabbit Hole
    530


    Absent pain is indeed good, but it is always good for someone, just as pleasure is good when it is good for someone.Bartricks

    You could say "it is good there is no one experiencing the pain"?
  • Bartricks
    6k
    Yes. The point, though, is that it would be good for someone. That is, there would be someone who is valuing the absence of anyone experiencing pain.
    Or are you asking if absence of pain would be good even if no one exists? In that case, no - for the reasons given in the OP.
  • Down The Rabbit Hole
    530


    es. The point, though, is that it would be good for someone.
    Or are you asking if absence of pain would be good even if no one exists? In that case, no - for the reasons given in the OP.
    Bartricks

    It feels right to say that non-existence is neither good or bad; it is neutral. However, if everyone stopped reproducing, it feels acceptable to say "it is good there will be no more people to experience pain".
  • Bartricks
    6k
    I am not denying it would be good if no one was experiencing pain. The point is that it would be good for someone, namely the person whose valuing of something constitutively determines that it has moral value.
    Benatar is assuming that there can be moral value in the absence of any and all valuers. And that makes no sense.

    Perhaps it is open to Benatar to concede that there does indeed need to be someone for whom a good state of affairs is good in order for it to be good. Yet he could argue that this person - the source of moral value - values a universe in which there is no suffering, but is indifferent to the absence of pleasure when there is no one from whom it is absent.
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    Benatar's asymmetry is simply this:

    1. Nonexistence means the absence of both pleasure & pain.

    2. The absence of pain is good even if there's no one to experience it.

    3. The absence of pleasure is not bad unless there's someone who experiences it.

    I reckon Benatar's asymmetry is true :point: suicide!

    Suicide suggests/indicates that people believe 1, 2 & 3 (above).
  • Existential Hope
    789
    I don't think that there is any sound argument for universal antinatalism. If it is bad to create negative lives, I believe that it can also be good to create positive ones, irrespective of whether or not one can ask for such a life themselves (however, we do need to take practical limitations and long-term impact of any action into account). And if the absence of pain is good even though it does not benefit an actual person, I don't see any reason to think that the lack of happiness isn't problematic even if there's no conscious harm. In the end, I agree that Benatar's asymmetry makes little sense, but that applies to universal antinatalism as a whole, as I showed in that other thread ;)

    "Where there is value, there needs to be a valuer."
    In which case one cannot claim that the absence of pain that helps nobody in the void is good but the lack of happiness isn't because someone isn't crying out for the joys.

    Regarding suicide and the "truth" of asymmetry, I think that people can believe many false things and many right things for the wrong reasons. If the fact that most people believe life is good and the joys are worth creating even if nobody needs them does not justify the idea that life can be worth it, then I don't think that the notion that the absence of pain is good but the lack of joy isn't bad can be logically defended, even though this might be an intuition we have (along with a whole bunch ofnotjer the intuitions that include the goodness of reproduction and life itself). The reality is that:
    1. Cessation could be rational if one considers the fact that it would prevent more harm than good.

    2. Alternatively, it could reduce one's pain, a relief which would certainly be desirable if no other way can be found.

    Benatar's asymmetry is false and the biggest argument for that is life itself ;)
  • Down The Rabbit Hole
    530


    I am not denying it would be good if no one was experiencing pain. The point is that it would be good for someone, namely the person whose valuing of something constitutively determines that it has moral value.Bartricks

    Agreed. As you've said, moral rights and wrongs only exist in minds.

    Benatar is assuming that there can be moral value in the absence of any and all valuers. And that makes no sense.Bartricks

    Is he not just proposing an argument and stimulating people's intuitions to gain support for it, just as we would? It is not clear that he is saying the AAA is objectively true.
  • Cuthbert
    1.1k
    I think Benatar's asymmetry holds water (roughly as @Agent Smith summarised). But it is an incomplete calculation of cost and benefit. It ignores or discounts the child-to-be as a potential producer of unique kinds of benefit and mitigator of specific pain for others who do currently exist. I am thinking of the joy of parents and the pain of the childless who wish for children. Perhaps there is injustice in bringing into the world, for one's own benefit, a child who otherwise would not exist to experience suffering and who will not lose anything by not coming into existence. But if the calculus is one purely of suffering and pleasure then the role of child as a producer, nor merely an experiencer, of such should be included.

    Another problem is a ramification of the argument. If it's sound and it applies to Benatar then it applies to me and to everyone. So to maximise benefit and minimise suffering we shouldn't breed. So the race will die out gradually as we age and die. There will be zero suffering. Nobody will be losing because nobody will exist who can lose. The result is nihilism. A stronger conclusion than the one intended, but I don't see how we can avoid it, having accepted Benatar's conclusion.
  • Existential Hope
    789
    Which is why we don't have to accept Benatar's asymmetry in the first place, since it doesn't make sense to claim that the lack of harms is supposedly "good" but the absence of joy isn't. Nobody needs the happiness before they exist, but neither do they need the void. And yeah, people who exist can certainly be a source of value for others, but it would still be preferable to avoid lives that are bound to be mostly negative.
  • Cuthbert
    1.1k
    ......the biggest argument for that is life itselfDA671

    The strongest argument against antinatalism is the declaration "Darling, I'm pregnant."
  • Existential Hope
    789
    Lol! Or perhaps the realisation that if a state of affairs devoid of harms does not need an experiencer to be deemed good, I don't think that one has good reasons to claim that someone needs to exist for the lack of value to be problematic. Arbitrary double standards don't constitute a valid "asymmetry'.

    As for pregnancy, I do think that we really need to take procreation far more seriously and ensure that we don't engage in mindless reproduction that could create mostly bad lives and exacerbate harms.
  • Cuthbert
    1.1k
    And yeah, people who exist can certainly be a source of value for others, but it would still be preferable to avoid lives that are bound to be mostly negativeDA671

    Benatar's argument is subtle and doesn't depend on the idea that life may be generally crap. Even if a life is 99.9% full of joy there will be some suffering. And by not having children we can avoid creating any suffering at all for them. They will not be 'missing out' on any pleasure because they will never exist. His argument works regardless of the balance of pain and pleasure for the child.
  • Existential Hope
    789
    And I don't think that the fact that there's nobody "missing out" on pleasure is relevant. There's nobody in the void who's desperate to avoid existence and would somehow feel fulfilled by their lack of creation. In short, they won't be "saved" from suffering since they would never exist in the first place to gain from that better state of affairs. However, if it's supposedly good for a harm to not exist even though it doesn't provide a tangible benefit to a person, I think that the only logically consistent view would be to suggest that the lack of happiness is bad irrespective of whether or not someone can ask for it themselves. I believe that the so-called asymmetry involves arbitrary double standards which are not reasonable.
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    The suicider's logic is simple and clear.

    Nonexistence is to be released from suffering. That the suicider ceases to exist upon death doesn't concern him/her (the absence of pain even when there's no one to experience that absence is good).

    What about the pleasure that a person forfeits upon death/choosing nonexistence? The absence of pleasure, if you really look at it, is, in essence, pain and we've already demonstrated (vide supra) that "the absence of pain even when there's no one to experience that absence is good" (as per suiciders).

    That's basically Benatar's asymmetry.

    However, the asymmetry ignores the contributions a would-be person could make to the overall alleviation/elimination of suffering. Imagine that you refuse to start a family and it's the case that your children would've discovered the cure for cancer, solved world poverty, brought world peace, and so on. To illustrate, the Bernoulli family, father and two sons, were instrumental to the advancement of mathematics; if genius/goodness runs in the family, is hereditary, it would be a capital mistake not to...er...breed a good stock! :smile:
  • Bartricks
    6k
    You have described the argument, as did I, but not addressed my criticisms of it.
  • Bartricks
    6k
    It doesn't imply suicide. The whole point of it is to show that there's a world of difference in the moral importance of benefit and harm between the existent and non existent. Only the existent can commit suicide, but by doing so they would be depriving themselves of some pleasures.

    Anyway, I made criticisms of the argument that you are simply ignoring.
  • RogueAI
    2.8k
    Benatar is assuming that there can be moral value in the absence of any and all valuers. And that makes no sense.Bartricks

    I agree. It's hard to see how morality exists in a personless universe.
  • Bartricks
    6k
    I think Benatar's asymmetry holds waterCuthbert

    Why? Do my criticisms of it fail - in what way?

    Note, this thread is not about the credibility of antinatalism, but about a particular asymmetry that Benatar appeals to in arguing for antinatalism. So if you say "the asymmetry is correct, but it does not imply antinatalism" then you're not focussing on what this thread is about - which is the credibility of the asymmetry, not the credibility of antinatalism.
  • Bartricks
    6k
    Here is, it seems to me, a much better way to explain the asymmetry in our intuitions between the happy-life case and the miserable life case. Better, that is, because it appeals to claims that are self-evident to reason.

    When it comes to benefits and harms we can distinguish between the undeserved and the non-deserved.

    When a harm or benefit is undeserved, it is bad. And any action that promotes undeserved harm or benefit is an action that we have some moral reason not to perform by virtue of this fact about it. (Note, an undeserved harm could also be construed as harm you deserve not to suffer).

    When a harm or benefit is non-deserved, then though it is good if it is a benefit and bad if it is a harm, we do not have any moral reason to perform the action that generates it.

    So far, so self evident.

    Intuitively, if you have done nothing and nothing has been done to you, then any harm you subsequently suffer is undeserved.

    However, equally intuitively, any benefit that subsequently accrues to you is non-deserved. That is, if you have done nothing at all, and some benefit accrues to you, that is good, not bad (if it was undeserved, it would be bad, not good).

    So, harms that befall someone who has done nothing or had nothing done to them are undeserved harms that we have reason to prevent. But benefits that befall someone who has done nothing or had nothing done to them are non-deserved and thus are benefits we have no moral reason to create.

    This explains why we have moral reason not to create a miserable life - the misery is undeserved harm and thus is harm we have reason not to create - and it explains why we have no positive moral reason to create the happy life - the happiness is non-deserved and is thus happiness we have no reason to create.

    It is an asymmetry, but unlike Benatar's it is intuitive and thus explanatory. And it does not generate the problems that Benatar's does. For it makes no difference whether a person pre-exists or not, other things being equal.

    Incidentally, it also implies antinatalism. For the benefits contained in a potential life turn out to be non-deserved and thus benefits we have no positive reason to generate. By contrast, the harms contained in a potential life are undeserved and are thus harms we have positive reason not to create.
  • Existential Hope
    789
    It was Agent who said that suicide somehow supports the asymmetry. But it isn't clear to me that a desire to die somehow implies that the absence of pain is actually bad. It could be the case that one would find relief from a slightly less painful death rather than living a life devoid of any value. However, this doesn't give us any reason to think that nonexistence itself is intrinsically better for the person. If one wants to take potential suffering that would be prevented into account, they also need to take potential joys into account. The failure to do so could lead to irrational conclusions. Once again, not all our intuitions might be correct (just as the antinatalist might claim, erroneously in my view, that the intuition that life is worth it is correct). The only thing that has been demonstrated ("vide supra") is that merely asserting that the lack of pain is good but the absence of happiness isn't bad on the basis of a selective glance at our intuitions is not logical. The absence of happiness leads to pain and the lack of pain can lead to satisfaction, so I don't think that one is fundamentally important than the other.

    I already said I don't agree with it. I don't think I ignored your argument.

    It's true that only the existent can experience goods and bads. They might also prevent potential benefits/harms.

    Your claims about harms/benefits and who "deserves them are problematic, in my view. If it's bad for people to experience harms they did not "deserve" to experience, I don't see why it wouldn't be good for innocent potential people to experience joys they never deserved to not experience. Once again, there's no real asymmetry here, so universal antinatalism cannot be justifiable.
  • Bartricks
    6k
    It's true that only the existent can experience goods and bads.DA671

    That's not what I said. I said that in order for something to be good, there has to be someone for whom it is good, for moral value requires a valuer. That's not at all the same as what you just said. Lots of goods and bads are not experiential, but they can still exist. It is just that the goodness of them, or the badness of them, would be 'for' someone insofar as there would be someone valuing or disvaluing that non-experiential state.

    Anyway, you have focussed on antinatalism, not the asymmetry I was criticizing. Focus.
  • Existential Hope
    789
    I am aware of that. I was referring to the suicide point. Good or bad may not be experiential (I disagree with that but I grant that for the sake of the discussion). However, as I said before, I don't believe that one can say that absent harms that benefit nobody are good, but the lack of all joy is not a worse state of affairs.

    Regarding the "asymmetry", it doesn't make sense to suggest that people who haven't done any good/bad don't "deserve" to suffer (which is why it would be good to prevent harm, which in turn would imply that they "deserve" to not suffer), but they somehow don't deserve to be happy (since they haven't done anything that justifies not creating that good). We do have a positive reason to create good (though that might be mitigated by other factors) just as we might have reasons to not create harm. Your argument implies that one needs to have done something good in order to deserve happiness, but if that's the case, then one could also say that they need to have done something worthwhile in order to deserve the prevention of harm (and the people who would have valuable lives need to have done something harmful if they apparently deserve to not experience potential joy). And if we cannot refer to nonexistence and only have existing people to work with, then we could also consider the fact that we do try to alleviate suffering for those who exist, which (rightly) suggests that we believe that everybody deserves to not suffer and be happy as long as they haven't harmed anybody. But if one needs to have done something moral to deserve happiness, then one could apply the same criteria to the prevention of harm and claim that we don't need to prevent suffering for people who just began to exist since they never did something that made them "deserve" the prevention of suffering. In other words, the bar of good as a necessity for joy but not for the prevention of harms seems arbitrary. I would also say that when we usually talk about what someone does not deserve, we also talk about what they do. So, if I say that someone does not deserve to be in prison, then I am also implying that they deserve to be free. Applying this framework to your argument would lead us to the absurd conclusion that people who begin to exist deserve to not experience joy (since they don't deserve to experience them).

    In short, if the creation of suffering that nobody deserved to experience is bad (which would imply that "they" deserved to not suffer even though they did not exist prior to their birth), then the formation of joys that we did not deserve to not experience can be good. If one needs to have done some good in order to justify the bestowal of joy onto them, then the only consistent view would be that one needs to have done a good if they don't deserve to suffer. I think that you are equivocating. By saying that suffering is undeserving, you are essentially implying that there is a reason to prevent harms for someone who has not done anything moral. In other words, people always "deserve" to not suffer. However, one could just as easily point out the fact nonexistent beings have not done something immoral either, which is why they don't deserve to not experience potential joy. I don't see any valid reason to accept the claim that doing something good is required for one who never existed to deserve happiness (which is a bizarre criteria, since we don't have a reason to assume that people who were created by us and haven't done any harm and weren't capable of doing a good before existing don't deserve to be happy), but it isn't necessary for them to have done something moral in order for them to deserve the elimination of suffering. Whenever we say that something was undeserving, we also mean that something else was preferable, such as freedom instead of imprisonment. Therefore, if you believe that the harms were undeserving, your position also entails that nonexistent beings "deserve" to not suffer. And this is where the unjustified double standards in your asymmetry become clear, for if it is important to have done a good for one to deserve joy, then I don't see why the same criteria should not apply in order for us to become undeserving of suffering. As always, focus does remain important. Have a wonderful day!
  • Bartricks
    6k
    Regarding the ""asymmetry", it doesn't make sense to suggest that people who haven't done any good/bad don't "deserve" to suffer (which is why it would be good to prevent harm, which in turn would imply that they "deserve" to not suffer), but they somehow don't deserve to be happy (since they haven't done anything that justifies not creating that good)DA671

    I don't follow you. Which claim of mine are you denying?
  • Existential Hope
    789
    That's been the crux of the issue for a while now.

    The claim that seems to imply that we do not deserve happiness because we haven't done anything moral, but we somehow deserve the prevention of suffering even though we haven't done anything good to justify that either.
  • Bartricks
    6k
    We do have a positive reason to create good (though that might be mitigated by other factors) just as we might have reasons to not create harm.DA671

    Question begging. Harms can be deserved or non-deserved. If a harm is deserved, then we have reason - or can have raeson to - to create it.

    I could benefit you right now by sending you some money. Do I have a positive reason to do that? No, right? I could if I wanted - it is not immoral of me to do it. But I don't have a positive obligation to give you some money. That benefit - the benefit I could create by sending you some money - is non-deserved.

    Your argument implies that one needs to have done something good in order to deserve happiness, but if that's the case, then one could also say that they need to have done something worthwhile in order to deserve the prevention of harm (and the people who would have valuable lives need to have done something harmful if they apparently deserve to not experience potential joy).DA671

    I am appealing to self-evident truths. One can say that 2 + 1 = 90, but it has no self-evidence to it at all. Whereas that 2 + 1 = 3 does.

    Now, it is self-evident that any harm that befalls an innocent is undeserved.

    It is also self-evident that any benefit that befalls an innocent is non-deserved.

    Again, I am going to assume that you are innocent. Well, if I just punch you, then I have visited an undeserved harm on you - I have done something wrong, something I had positive reason not to do. But if I send you some money, then I have visited non-deserved benefit on you. I have done something good, but not something I had positive reason to do. Yes?
    It's not the case that you deserve not to be punched and deserve to be sent some money. No, you deserve not to be punched, but you are non-deserving of being sent some money.
    We all recognize this at some level - rights language can be used to express it. You have a 'right' not to be punched by me, but you have no right to be sent some of my money.
  • Bartricks
    6k
    The claim that seems to imply that we do not deserve happiness because we haven't done anything moral, but we somehow deserve the prevention of suffering even though we haven't done anything good to justify that either.DA671

    On what basis are you disputing it? Do you have the same right to have me visit a benefit on you as you do not to have me visit a harm upon you?

    Note too the ambiguity of the view you attribute to me. To say that we 'do not deserve' happiness is ambiguous between being non-deserving of it and being positively undeserving of it.

    I would say that we are 'non-deserving' of happiness when we are innocent. So, not undeserving of it, but non-deserving of it.
  • Existential Hope
    789
    It isn't question begging. I am only pointing out that there isn't a sufficient reason to treat the harms and benefits differently. The point was that the reasons provided for treating harms and benefits differently as far as procreation is concerned are arbitrary.

    We could be deserving of things without it being necessary for you to provide it to me if I don't have an extreme need for that thing in order to be happy. As for the benefit, I don't think that one needs to constantly benefit others when they don't need external help to such a great degree. However, this is because of the linked nature of harms and benefits. If one would suffer terribly if they don't get the money due to the absence of the joy of getting it, then it would definitely be important to give the money. However, since the lack of money is not likely to cause terrible harm to my ability to be happy, it doesn't make sense for you to sacrifice precious resources for trying to help me. But it's evident that nonexistent beings aren't in a state of affairs they prefer/don't prefer, which is why we would have to take future goods/harms into account.

    I don't think that your claim is intuitive at all. One could claim that 2+2 is 4 but 1×4 is 8. But this would not make this true.

    It's indeed self-evident that the harms are undeserved.

    But it's also self-evident that the benefits are deserved. This is because we assume the innocence of people. We believe that innocent human beings deserve to not suffer, and they deserve to be happy. Your argument hasn't truly addressed that.

    If you punch me, it would certainly be wrong (I think), since I don't believe that I deserve to be punched (I hope). However, this also implies that I deserve to be healthy (which is good for me). Deserving things seems to be about our innocence, not on the intensity of our needs to prevent being punched vs gaining money. For instance, even if someone is perfectly happy, it wouldn't be the case that they don't deserve more happiness unless they committed an immoral deed.

    On the basis of consistency. Benefits and harms are interrelated. Since existing beings don't require incessant intervention in order to live sufficiently valuable lives, I do think that preventing extreme harms is more important. However, nonexistent beings aren't in a fulfilled state of affairs, which is why it becomes important to treat harms/benefits as far as they are concerned.

    I don't think that there is any ambiguity. In my view, when we say that we don't deserve something, we necessarily mean that we deserve something else. This can be seen when we talk about people not deserving to be in prison, which is precisely because we believe that they deserve to be free. Therefore, it's the term "non-deserving" which is ambiguous and somewhat peculiar.
  • Bartricks
    6k
    It isn't question begging. I am only pointing out that there isn't a sufficient reason to treat the harms and benefits differently.DA671

    So, just to be clear - you think you have as much right to have others benefit you as you do to have them not harm you? Because, you know, that's absurd and you don't really think it and no-one else does either.

    It is intuitively obvious that, other things being equal, you deserve not to be harmed by me. And it is equally intuitively obvious that you are not entitled to have me visit a benefit on you.
  • Existential Hope
    789
    Not exactly, since I don't need incessant interference from others (especially if it comes at a great cost for themselves) to be happy as long as they don't harm me. Rights are not exactly the same as what we deserve. Rights involve things we need others to do.
    Here's the definition of "deserve" according to the Cambridge dictionary:

    "to have earned or to be given something because of the way you have behaved or the qualities you have"

    This means that deserving things has to do with our actions (which is why if one can say that we don't deserve to be happy because we haven't done anything moral before existing, we could also say that we don't deserve to not suffer since we haven't done anything to be "worthy" of that) and not with whether or not I would suffer from an absence of something. I could still deserve to receive a gift even if I am already happy as long as I don't commit an evil deed. Now, whether it's obligatory for you to give me a gift is a different matter, and this depends upon the degree of sacrifice involved for you, the long-term consequences of actions that could be universalised, as well as the amount of happiness that would be lost if I don't get the money. However, nonexistent beings aren't in a satisfied state of affairs, which is why we do not need to treat the benefits and harms in an asymmetrical manner.

    If you say that people don't deserve to suffer (undeserved harm), then you are presuming their innocence. I would argue that innocent people deserve to be happy, just as they don't deserve to suffer. However, the way we create happiness has to be seen under a broader context that includes our own well-being and limitations as well as the outcome of any action (such as incessantly forcing others to increase happiness).
  • Bartricks
    6k
    You just ignored the other things being equal clause.

    Do I have as much reason to benefit you as harm you?

    The answer is 'no', right?

    So, you don't positively deserve any benefit from me - it'd be nice if I benefitted you, but it is not obligatory.

    By contrast, I do have an obligation not to visit a harm on you.

    This is intuitively obvious. It is asymmetrical. But it is intuitively obvious.

    So, other things being equal, an innocent person does not positively deserve benefit - they are 'non' deserving of benefit (not 'undeserving' but 'non-deserving'). But they do deserve not to be harmed.

    And note, this 'explains' why we have no positive obligation to procreate even if we know that the life we create will be a happy one, and explains why we do have a positive obligation not to procreate if we know the life we create will be an unhappy one.
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