• Philosophim
    2.6k
    I want to point out this is not about religion. Religion doesn't make me angry. It is the idea that you will exist after you die that makes me angry.

    The reason is that it becomes an excuse for humans to put up with suffering and lower states of being. You would think that it would inspire people to act more ethically or do great works, but I feel the opposite happens instead.

    This is of course anecdotal, meant to be a discussion, and with different view points. I am not preaching nor claiming truth here. When I listen to those who have accomplished great things in life, be it financial, ethical, or personal goal oriented, I rarely here, "I did it because I know there's life after death." I hear, "I love people, I love myself, I wanted to be remembered. I wanted to accomplish great things, I couldn't bear to watch others suffer, etc. It is the here and now that motivates people to action, not the great beyond.

    Yet when I have spoken with people who believe in life after death, and as someone who once believed in it, I have found it is a convenient excuse for why you don't do more. The mind can imagine that it is worth suffering today because eventually your later life will not suffer. Almost everyone who believes in life after death believes they are worthy of it, and it will be pleasant and not torturous.

    Further, it is easy to implicitly deny the immediacy of other's suffering. When my Aunt died of cancer, my mother thought it was sad that my Aunt didn't believe in life after death. My mother than proudly claimed that she wouldn't be afraid of death when it came because she knew it wasn't the end. I had to tell her that she would be afraid regardless, and that was ok. It is not wrong to feel afraid, or to admit we and others suffer. Facing that head on means we are there to comfort, assist, and not judge. When we realize the reality of pain, loss, and things we will never get back, it can inspire us to be there for others instead of removing ourselves from it.

    Further, I find the idea of life after death the ultimate in arrogance and hubris. All scientific evidence and even anecdotal evidence shows that when you die, you are dead. And yet many people insist that there is something out there because...you're more intelligent than other animals? Because you've thought all of your life, so why wouldn't you continue to think? Because what you strongly believe is more important than the facts in front of you? It is a denial of the world around you. And I feel denial of reality is a habit. When you do it in small things, it tends to bleed out in larger things.

    And I suppose this is the ultimate source of my anger. It is not the belief in life after death per say, it is the belief in something that is not real, that I, in my viewpoint, see as self-evidently wrong after these years. And I suppose the anger I feel is not at the people who choose to believe in life after death, but the suffering, procrastination, and hubris it can cause a person to feel. It is the negative hear and now that I feel it causes other people, and that is what I wanted to examine, not in the afterlife, but today.
  • Dijkgraf
    83
    Yet when I have spoken with people who believe in life after death, and as someone who once believed in it, I have found it is a convenient excuse for why you don't do more.Philosophim

    No, rebirth is no excuse, it's a fact.
  • Philosophim
    2.6k
    No, rebirth is no excuse, it's a fact.Dijkgraf

    A fact is something provable. Rebirth is no fact.
  • Dijkgraf
    83
    Rebirth is no fact.Philosophim

    You can deduce the proof from cosmology.
  • Philosophim
    2.6k
    You can deduce the proof from cosmology.Dijkgraf

    Please provide that proof then.
  • Dijkgraf
    83


    Okay. I'll try. I'm not trolling or whatever. I'm serious. In my view, the singularity is a thin wormhole connecting two parts of a 4-dimensional universe. I consider particles as small geometric structures. Three large space dimension of a 6D space are curled up to tiny circles. A tiny Planck-sized torus. A cartesian product of circles. Almost, but not quite pointlike. They are confined to 3D space (which is 6D basically). Before I continue, you want me to continue?
  • Philosophim
    2.6k
    Before I continue, you want me to continue?Dijkgraf

    No. This is all made up in your head. The more important question is, why did you make it up? Why do you insist on believing something you know you just came up with?
  • Dijkgraf
    83
    This is all made up in your headPhilosophim

    All cosmological theories are made up in heads!
  • Dijkgraf
    83
    Why do you insist on believing something you know you just came up with?Philosophim

    Took me 15 years to come up with. It fits my belief exactly. It even inspired it.
  • Dijkgraf
    83


    How are you so sure you won't be born again?

    I have the mechanism to make it happen.
  • Alkis Piskas
    2.1k

    Well, don't be (angry)! :smile:
    Does the existence of God or a Supreme Being make you also angry?
    Does the existence of ghosts make you also angry?

    These are beliefs, not facts. I think that the beliefs of people, esp. when there's a huge amount of them on Earth, should be respected. I do. Almost the whole East believes in life after death and a big part of the West too. It is their reality. If that doesn't make sense to you, it just doesn't make sense to you. Adhere to your own beliefs and reality.

    The reason is that it becomes an excuse for humans to put up with suffering and lower states of being.Philosophim
    it is a convenient excuse for why you don't do morePhilosophim
    Not true. There may exist some cases like these, but it is not the general rule. Most people's belief in life after death is real. It is their reality. It is something much more real than you can imagine. They don't believe it in order to escape from anything or give excuses.

    It is not the belief in life after death per say, it is the belief in something that is not real, that I, in my viewpoint ...Philosophim
    Exactly, this is your viewpoint! :smile:
  • theRiddler
    260
    There is zero scientific evidence one way or the other. What makes me angry is when people lie to support their personal bias.
  • Dijkgraf
    83
    What makes me angry is when people lie to support their personal bias.theRiddler

    You can see your present existence as proof of a previous existence. Why is that a lie?
  • Jack Cummins
    5.3k

    I haven't come across anyone who has said that they feel angry about people believing in life after death, although I am aware that being preached to can lead people to feel angry. Personally, I am not sure whether I believe in life after death or not, as my thinking shifts a lot. Of course, the psychology of believing or not believing in it is variable and I do wonder to what extent the psychology of the belief influences belief in it.

    Personally, I like the idea of rebirth because one life and one body seems a bit limiting and some have better circumstances than others. However, I try to not simply convince myself that reincarnation exists on that basis because it would seem like philosophical dishonesty.
  • 180 Proof
    15.3k
    You can see your present existence as proof of a previous existence.Dijkgraf
    :roll:

    What makes me angry is when people lie to support their personal bias.theRiddler
    :up: e.g. Theology, no?
  • Philosophim
    2.6k
    Took me 15 years to come up with. It fits my belief exactly. It even inspired it.Dijkgraf

    And this is my point. Coming up with something that satisfies our emotional desires is stunting growth. It is imaginary. Does it help you be a better person to others? Does it help you make the world a better place? I just don't see it.
  • Philosophim
    2.6k
    Does the existence of God or a Supreme Being make you also angry?
    Does the existence of ghosts make you also angry?
    Alkis Piskas

    Oddly, no. I think this is because they are concepts divorced enough from reality that I can understand why someone would believe them. When people are in the realm of no evidence, people will invent a reason or explanation to understand a mystery in some way. Life after death just seems counter to every single basic learned experience of life. The evidence is as solid as the sun shines. It seems immature to me to hold it, if of course you've looked at it reasonably.

    Perhaps too if I saw more people motivated to be better people or do greater things in the world with a belief in their eternal existence, then I would be less angry. Honestly I'm not much against how someone reaches a point in the road, as long as they get there without harming themselves and others too much.

    Most people's belief in life after death is real. It is their reality.Alkis Piskas

    All of our beliefs are our personal reality. It doesn't mean they match actual reality. And that's my point. This type of belief, in my eyes, does nothing to address or handle reality in a better way, but is most often used to avoid it. That to me is something that destroys a person's potential, and I do not like to see people's potential ruined.

    But much appreciated Tim! I can definitely say YOU do not make me angry, and am glad for your presence on these boards. :smile:
  • Dijkgraf
    83
    And this is my point. Coming up with something that satisfies our emotional desires is stunting growth. It is imaginary. Does it help you be a better person to others? Does it help you make the world a better place? I just don't seePhilosophim

    Well, I didn't come up on it to fit my desire. I never desire to live another life. It just turns out to be that way. And luckily. Maybe next time it's done better. I didn't ask for this world I live in.
    It's not going to make a better or worse person of me. Is it that what makes you angry? That people believing in reincarnation forget to think about fellow people? Then you could transpone life every time to the next. Same as prolonging everything to tomorrow. I don't like that either. It's no excuse.
  • Philosophim
    2.6k
    I haven't come across anyone who has said that they feel angry about people believing in life after deathJack Cummins

    Its why I made this post. It is an odd thing. I wanted to know why. I wanted to know if I was jutified, or (more likely) not justified. Hearing other people's input on the matter gives that view point to either ease the anger, or redirect it towards something better than an emotional discomfort.

    Personally, I like the idea of rebirth because one life and one body seems a bit limiting and some have better circumstances than others. However, I try to not simply convince myself that reincarnation exists on that basis because it would seem like philosophical dishonesty.Jack Cummins

    I think you have it right. Wanting life after death is motivated by a sense of unfairness or disappointment of our limitations, and I'm sure other emotions. To me, those emotions are not meant to be buried with the "liquor of immortality", but should be used to motivate and direct us to go past our limitations, and work on fixing the world's unfairness. It is the only way the world improves for ourselves and others, Getting drunk on thoughts of a better life beyond this one is no better than getting drunk every evening after work.
  • Philosophim
    2.6k
    It's not going to make a better or worse person of me. Is it that what makes you angry? That people believing in reincarnation forget to think about fellow people? Then you could transpone life every time to the next. Same as prolonging everything to tomorrow. I don't like that either. It's no excuse.Dijkgraf

    Yes, that is what makes me angry. I see it as rarely, if ever helping people to be a better person, and more often than not, an implicit excuse to settle for one's or other's unfortunate lot in life.
  • Gregory
    4.7k


    What if the experience surrounding "death" is eternal and the body dying doesn't have a way to delete the eternity once it has happened in its own time?
  • theRiddler
    260


    Theology definitely.

    But we. as wild men, shouldn't be throwing anything out with the bathwater. It's just a treatise with death.

    Honestly, the universe should have proven itself more than we can muster by now. Until proof settles in, which is a long way off, keep an open mind.

    Or fall off the edge of the earth.

    Retain the mere possibility...that this universe is grander than our perceptions. Which are VERY grand.
  • Wayfarer
    22.5k
    Religion doesn't make me angry. It is the idea that you will exist after you die that makes me angry.

    The reason is that it becomes an excuse for humans to put up with suffering and lower states of being.
    Philosophim

    But I thought the theory was that what occurs in the next life hinges on your actions in this life.

    As it is, I think a lot of people do many things which they wouldn't do, IF they believed they would suffer in the next life for it.

    What if mass shooters really believed that they would suffer in the afterlife as a consequence of their actions? As it is, I'm sure most of them believe that when they die there are no consequences.
  • Dijkgraf
    83
    Getting drunk on thoughts of a better life beyond this one is no better than getting drunk every evening after work.Philosophim

    Very true. It can stand on the same ground even as escaping by heroin. No real solution. Maybe heroin is even better. That at least takes pain away. Better than: "Ah, WTF! Next life better! Let's focus on that..."
  • Gregory
    4.7k


    There is much to be said about the relationship between matter and consciousness. We are a body but consciousness might not rise from the body in a dependent way.
  • theRiddler
    260
    There can, honestly, be life beyond the parameters of time without these notions of beginnings or endings.

    If you're going to revolve your whole philosophy around SCRIPTURE that's most definitely YOUR PROBLEM.

    We've entered a real scientific paradigm beyond any of this, and you're all willfully ignoring weird, strange science for scripture.
  • Gregory
    4.7k
    Heidegger's main point, I believe, was that matter AND time bring about consciousness. A mechanical linear view of matter won't get to the core reality on consciousness
  • theRiddler
    260
    Leave that shir behind already. In acting like it has no prowess you're granting it power. What of the facts we've seen?!
  • theRiddler
    260


    Or it might. What is required is a hegemony between the two, regardless of how horrific.

    And let's acknowledge that eternal life is infinitely scarier than death.
  • Dijkgraf
    83


    On the other hand, @Wayfarer makes a good point. Belief in a new life, be it secular or not, can give a good excuse from refraining doing harm. If that has repercussions for the afterthislife.
  • Tom Storm
    9.1k
    What if mass shooters really believed that they would suffer in the afterlife as a consequence of their actions? As it is, I'm sure most of them believe that when they die there are no consequences.Wayfarer

    What about all those hideous crimes, from bride-burning to mass murder that are initiated by religious belief? Seems to me religions are often a benzedrine for atrocity. Think of the Saudis executing homosexuals on behalf of Wahhabi Islam. Bet they think this will take them to Paradise. I've met serious Lutheran Christians who thought the Shoah/Holocaust was God's work (perhaps based on ideas in Luther's sermons). So there is that.
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