That was it. Thanks for your contribution. The idiots have set the zeitgeist, since at least the time of Thatcher and Raygun. Perhaps, one hopes, their time is done. If not, we all might be done. — Banno

We're all done. As individual people are these days, there hasn't been more conformity ever before.

Yanis Varoufakis, belov'd of German bankers, sparked my curiosity by claiming that idiotis, in ancient Greek, was a derogatory term for one who refuses to think in terms of the common good — Banno

Funny, I just heard another unsourced version of this factoid: as the story went, there was a law in Sparta (rather than Athens) concerning political conflicts in the polis. Every citizen was obligated to choose a side; those who didn't were called ideos. They were subject to the seizure of property and exile.

On checking, it does mean "one's own". — Banno

reflect on the connection between 'idiosyncratic' and 'idiom'. One meaning I had heard is that it is someone who speaks a language understandable only to himself, or uses language in a way that is unintelligible to others. This was in connection to an analysis of Trump speak.

Funny, I just heard another unsourced version of this factoid: as the story went, there was a law in Sparta (rather than Athens) concerning political conflicts in the polis. Every citizen was obligated to choose a side; those who didn't were called ideos. They were subject to the seizure of property and exile. — SophistiCat

Explains why some states treat abstentions as a form of protest; a few minor adjustments here and there and those who refuse to cast their ballot are rebels, subversives, traitors, whatnot.

That whole notion of idiocy is just invented to direct life as seems suited to the ones using it.

"Here's wisdom: One who looks out for thier own interests at the expense of others is, quite literally, an idiot." Remarkably stupid thing to say. If the interests of others are evil, whether its causing misery for a billion or killing a million, why is the person that acts on a contrary interest an idiot?

This forum is an insult to philosophy - does anyone here know a forum that discusses things worth discussing?Not mere "socratic" (/idiotic) discussion???

This forum is an insult to philosophy — peoplearesmart

But it allows for rational discussion and beneficial growth of ideas.

:fire:

:mask: Idiōtēs ask the darnedest questions ...

@peoplearesmart joined two weeks ago, apparently for the sole purpose of making the above comment.

Presumably they are out there looking after themselves somewhere.

Th most obvious Idiōtēs at present are perhaps the sovereign citizens.

Th most obvious Idiōtēs at present are perhaps the sovereign citizens. — Banno

"They believe that laws only apply to them if they agree to them". :roll:

It makes sense in the context of ancient Greek life — Tobias

What should we do about the Spartans Nicholas, we just voted 50/50? NO! I’m going to sit here and eat my olives. -Two greeks 300bc.

It’s not a stretch of the imagination to imagine the Greeks valued men who were not self-obsessed and willing to discuss political questions for the benefit of their respective city-state. Of course, there were people who had more influence. Not thinking up well thought out decisions could lead to horrific outcomes. If someone didn’t want to (or couldn’t I guess) they were an idiot. I think i read in a old book that it ment someone who didn't understand thier education but your explanation makes more sense!

So egoism is idiocy. I prefer a system in which everyone is egoistic, the way it actually is I believe, and it all works out. I've seen people being called out for thinking for someone else. Doing that is considered a sign of arrogance. Every man for himself, people, every man for himself. — Agent Smith

I do understand the urge to seek knowledge for the benefit of oneself, that written, questioning the motive of altruism is for my mind a sign of true idiocy. Where does it lead, does it make you feel superior?

Altruism is, all said and done, just a fancy way of being selfish... — Agent Smith

“You where the Chosen One! It was said that you would destroy the Sith, not join them.” – Obi-Wan Kenobi.

I thought the goal of philosophy was to end all evil. If such a thing is even possible. I don’t see how egocentrism and greed is of any use in doing that, quite the contrary, in my experience it makes people more likely to ignore and not support people who are in dire need of understanding.

And what role does the cultural capitalistic feedback loop play in this? There is an entity out there that wants you to focus on yourself. Don’t even dare to think of the homeless man who smells like pee as an actual human trapped in a horrific fate. He is below you, a degenerate of no use to society, of no use to you.

The existing (scientific) paradigms, especially the Theory of Evolution, can't be used to make sense of altruism (re The Selfish Gene, Richard Dawkins). That's all.

Moreover, the Tao is, if you'll permit me to humanize it, unbelievably wise: the idea, it seems, is when offered a choice like this (altruism) or that (selfishness), one must have the gumption to ask "why not both?"

:smile:

Folks, there's a bit that keeps getting left out. I'll bold it for you:

One who looks out for thier own interests at the expense of others is, quite literally, an idiot. — Banno

The existing (scientific) paradigms, especially the Theory of Evolution, can't be used to make sense of altruism (re The Selfish Gene, Richard Dawkins). That's all. — Agent Smith

Perhaps the natural sciences can't yet but that is not their purpose. In the social sciences on the other hand there have been attempts to construct elaborate models of thinking, culture, ethics; but as it seems humans have a hard time agreeing on things if they are not based on pure empirical observation, which is a phenomenon almost exclusive the natural sciences, that is in itself prone to human error. Perhaps science have dogmatically replaced God in your mind. But then I guess we all need something to believe is real not to fall into madness.

One who looks out for thier own interests at the expense of others is, quite literally, an idiot. — Banno

Back to the topic at hand, the Greek idiots. Humans are social animals. And most people have a desire (or whatever you want to call it) to be liked, at least by what they consider their community, which complicates things in modern society. I’m basing this on my common sense (who wants to be disliked by their people). Some are born without empathy, some lose it thought trauma and what not; psychopaths, narcissists, sociopaths. With that in mind; someone looking out for them self at the expense of others is an idiot given that the victim’s (for a lack of a better word) is part of the same community and understands what is happening. In this case the idiot will most likely be shunned by that community, and if it is a tightly knit one that could be really bad for the idiot. Example: "Nicholas, why did you say that? Everyone is gonna dislike you now you idiot?" - greek 300bc.
I’m thinking about some of the Native-American tribes pre conquest who had beautiful ethics for both human and animal, do no harm, live as one with nature etc. Being liked by some community and having a "good time" seems like something humans want in most cases, except for the occasional hermit. I don’t see how digging deeper into the cold biology of it makes this truth any more comprehensible. Even in a hypothetic Greek citystate filled with rapey, sadistic pigs, going against the norm is idiocy, in the context of social wellbeeing and survival. So yeah i'd say there is immense wisdom in that and that key here is the defintion of expence.

Like I mentioned the larger and more complex a system is, think globalized world and the internet, the same concept could be applied but everything gets much messier, because so many things could be considered right or wrong; ideology, values, beliefs, convictions. So, I guess a lack of understanding is what constitutes an idiot given the definition provided, and it does oddly enough make sense in the context of human nature. For the average Greek 2008, the bankers were the idiots, the bankers just cashed out.

...when offered a choice like this (altruism) or that (selfishness), one must have the gumption to ask "why not both?" — Agent Smith

I’m a working-class guy living in the west, not a single mother of five working a factory in Bangladesh. To answer this question: because altruistic decency is better for everyone, it makes people happier. I fail to see how a world of purely egoistic identity derived pleasure helps the majority. What about the people who are, as you put it, biologically incapable to fend for themselves in this Sodom and Gomorra you dream of? Also most of what is cosider sick in this day and age was done, and is beeing done in the name of personal pleasue and selfishness. I dont see why we as a specie should exercise that muscel.

Perhaps the natural sciences can't yet but that is not their purpose. In the social sciences on the other hand there have been attempts to construct elaborate models of thinking, culture, ethics; but as it seems humans have a hard time agreeing on things if they are not based on pure empirical observation, which is a phenomenon almost exclusive the natural sciences, that is in itself prone to human error. Perhaps science have dogmatically replaced God in your mind. But then I guess we all need something to believe is real not to fall into madness. — trogdor

Yeah, possible a case of the drunkard's search principle.

Yanis Varoufakis, belov'd of German bankers, sparked my curiosity by claiming that idiotis, in ancient Greek, was a derogatory term for one who refuses to think in terms of the common good.

On checking, it does mean "one's own".

Here's wisdom: One who looks out for thier own interests at the expense of others is, quite literally, an idiot. — Banno

As I Greek I can tell you that Varoufakis is an anathema to German bankers ,the European bank and the IMF. He was the only minister of economics who during his time didn't accept loans from the troika.
The term ιδιώτης (from where the English word idiots comes from) was used to identify those who abstained from the political events and decisions about their city state.
That was indeed a derogatory term used in Ancient Athens, where a democratic system allowed and demanded the participation of "all" citizens. The argument was... by not participating in the political life of the city that would allowed speculators to force their will on a weakened system.

You can hear it in "idiosyncratic" or "ideolect". Something personal, quirky. — Streetlight

you meant idiolect....

Varoufakis is an anathema to German bankers — Nickolasgaspar

Lost irony.

So you claim that you are more familiar with Greek politics than those who live in the country and follow the events.......lol whatever.

What? :rofl:

Sometimes folk say one thng while meaning the exact other. It's a form of humour...

It's called irony, or if mocking, sarcasm.

Must be a celtic thing.

Quotes are a good way to highlight your irony, sarcasm, mocking etc....just saying.

To the OP...

Now that's a praiseworthy resurrection if there is such a thing! Greeks didn't do funny stuff with words. Those who came later are the ones who rendered the term meaningless.

I prefer a system in which everyone is egoistic, the way it actually is I believe, and it all works out. — Agent Smith

If everyone is actually egoistic, then it makes no sense whatsoever to talk about preferring a system in which everyone is egoistic. It makes sense to talk about preferring a system in which everyone is egoistic, but only because not everyone is.

Some people help elderly people with tasks for no other reason than to be helpful. While it feels good to do such things, that feeling is not what motivates the action. Rather, it just an unintended consequence of helping others out.

Point made, point taken. However, you're conflating egoism with, my best guess, freedom!