But why should I care? — Srap Tasmaner
I don't know what solution you're proposing, — Srap Tasmaner
and I'm not convinced it's relevant to this discussion.
So what is one to make of the moral character of folk who hold someone who tortures folk unjustly in the highest esteem?
If you made the acquaintance of someone who thought highly of a person who tortured dogs as a hobby, would you befriend them? Ought you associate with them? — Banno
The OP says: — baker
What I can't do is just condemn 1/4 of the species (or whatever it is) and leave it there. That's a dangerous mindset. — frank
That could be partly true but I don't think you need to understand a life to understand where it is objectionable. — Tom Storm
Maslow.'s criterion of happiness is "self-actualization" "being all you can be". It's akin to Aristotle's eudamonia and arete; not dependent on having a lot of money, material possessions or what others think of you. — Janus
Near as I can tell, DL and Banno think maybe they can, you know, refute Christianity. With an argument. I mean ... — Srap Tasmaner
You either are, or you are not. And to forestall objection, the alternative is that no criteria apply, and that a Christian (or pretty much anything else) is whatever anyone says it is, all contradictories included. — tim wood
Those people most plausibly Christian express their beliefs as beliefs. And among the things they believe in are the divinity and resurrection of Jesus. Believe being the key word, failure of which to understand is fatal to understanding Christianity. — tim wood
This seems to be the related paper: Divine Evil — Banno
And when you get to the pearly gates and Peter himself asks your warrant for presenting yourself, are you going to say that you're there because Joe the whackdoodle sent you? That is, claimed you were a Christian. What do you say (rhetorical question)? And why do you say it - in your heart of hearts? Because I think we all pretty much know what we are, and not only wrt religion, but all kinds of things.I've heard Christians claim that I am Christian, because I had been Baptized. Which I have. — god must be atheist
That depends on what you mean by Christian. If by that you mean a person who lives according to God's Will - and indeed, if I live by God's Will - I guess I will have avoided many disasters and tears.And when you get to the pearly gates and Peter himself asks your warrant for presenting yourself, are you going to say that you're there because Joe the whackdoodle sent you? That is, claimed you were a Christian. — tim wood
Well, isn't that the whole and entire point? And not just about being a Christian but instead about a lot of things? There either are, or there are not, criteria, by the measure of which, one either is, or is not, according to the criteria.That depends on what you mean by Christian. — EnPassant
That's an interesting observation, are you saying Jews or Muslims allow criticizing God more than Christians? — SpaceDweller
As to Christianity, might we agree there was a time in the world when there was no such thing? — tim wood
As to Christianity, might we agree there was a time in the world when there was no such thing? And then, following on some events, there were such? And some of those meeting and considering the matter, established criteria for being Christian? And just these having an original claim as to what being a Christian is and isn't? — tim wood
What I can't do is just condemn 1/4 of the species (or whatever it is) and leave it there. That's a dangerous mindset.
— frank
Why? Could you elaborate? — baker
You attribute as characteristic of religion what also appears in political and sports rhetoric, — Primperan
I don't read either the article, nor Banno's OP as an attempt to 'understand' why Christians think they way they do. — Isaac
Even if we imagine the extremes of a Christian entirely overcome by rapture, they will emerge with a deep and unshakeable faith that... — Isaac
The problem is that it's objectionable per your standards (well, and those of your cronies, if you have them). Your standards are based on nothing but your gut feelings.
Someone who believes their standards are based on more than just their own gut feelings can object much more powerfully than you; they can make their objection matter, while you can't. — baker
If we were to follow Srap Tasmaner's argument, we would be debarred from critique of any worldview unless we had been properly initiated into it's creed and understood it from the point of view of the true believer. I doubt he would apply this argument to Cartesianism, liberalism or Cricket, so again it is a form of special pleading. — Banno
It is obvious to the point of tedium that christians will not be dissuaded from their belief by the arguments here. They are not the audience, either for Lewis' article or for this thread. That Srap supposes otherwise is just plain odd. It seems to be little more than a veiled ad hom directed at Lewis and myself. — Banno
There are 2 kinds of atheists, those who don't believe in God and those who believe there is no God, they are a sort of believers.
You see, those who believe there is no God will defend atheism and sometimes attack those who believe in God, while those who just don't believe don't give a sh* about what believers believe, they simply don't believe God exists.
Therefore if you ever see someone "revenging" at atheists, it must be defense of their own faith rather than attacking atheists. — SpaceDweller
I think believers experience the world quite differently from me. — Srap Tasmaner
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