Well, yours and mine, if you like. I say a god who inflicts infinite torture for finite offences is not worthy of worship. What say you?
Ethical relativism be damned; if you defend such a villain, your moral judgement is questionable. — Banno
He places people in a situation in which they must make a judgment that binds them for eternity, and he knows that some will be so inadequately informed that they will opt for an eternity of torment (or a state for which torment is an apt metaphor). — p. 233
He could leave incompatibilist freedom intact while doing far more luring and urging than he does. Assuming we have to make a choice, why must it be made through a glass darkly? God seems negligent at best.
From my mundane perspective, I may judge myself happy enough in my denial of God. Once I am fully informed, however, I will appreciate the grossness of my swinish satisfaction, and torment will be an apt description of my insubordinate condition.
in so far as they admire those who do accept eternal damnation — Banno
the view that christianity ought be judged only (or mainly) from a christian perspective — Banno
I’m not sure you can really understand that life without living it. I don’t, and I don’t, that’s all I can say. — Srap Tasmaner
The reality is Lewis nor anyone else will ever be able to know why every individual believes what he or she believes or even precisely what they believe or how they interpret religious texts. — laura ann
you want to find their faith wanting, without bothering to understand it. Indeed, there may be a barrier there: — Srap Tasmaner
don't read either the article, nor Banno's OP as an attempt to 'understand' why Christians think they way they do — Isaac
This discussion is tedious. Yes, there may be folk who call themselves christian who do not hold that god torments souls for eternity. But there are folk who do so hold, and the criticism in the Lewis article applies to them. — Banno
But there's nothing in philosophical about "They suck" — frank
It's about bad people [not?] getting away with their crimes. — frank
Those who do not believe in god, when they die, will be cast into eternal torment.
This is a punishment out of all proportion with the offence.
Christians hold that the person who inflicts this unjust punishment - God - is worthy of worship. — Banno
Is it. How do we know they're 'bad' people if the arbiter of justice must be divine. If we abdicate moral judgement to some higher authority, then it might be the 'good' people being punished, or we end up only tautologically concluding that it is 'the punished' who are punished. — Isaac
A Christian is a more-or-less well defined thing characterized mainly by a belief in Christ, and certain things about him. And no need at all to be one to understand, use, or appreciate the term. — tim wood
I don't read either the article, nor Banno's OP as an attempt to 'understand' why Christians think they way they do. We could invoke upbringing, group membership tokens, and cognitive biases to have that job done in a jiffy. — Isaac
Understanding Christian psychology and discussing Christian ethics are two separate things. The OP, as a understand it, is about the latter. — Isaac
Is God beyond our petty and all too tellurian morality? But if so, then why follow his edicts, why pursue a place in heaven? — Isaac
Ah, but there is the rub. The character, essence and teaching of Christ are up for interpretation. — god must be atheist
It's actually simple to answer, a Christian believes in Jesus such that it does not deny it.Again this is an impossible question to answer, because we need to agree first on who a Christian is, and for that we need a definition — god must be atheist
But my lack of understanding of someone’s faith is no objection to it. — Srap Tasmaner
Aiee! Either either-or or neither-nor. I lean to either-or. That is, most simply, that being a Christian (or pretty much anything else) is at some level either-or. You either are, or you are not. And to forestall objection, the alternative is that no criteria apply, and that a Christian (or pretty much anything else) is whatever anyone says it is, all contradictories included.Ah, but there is the rub. — god must be atheist
Christians don’t believe that you gather information and then make a decision about how you’d like to spend eternity; they believe you either open your heart to His grace or you deliberately shut Him out.
/.../
Christians believe you are “fully informed” right now. What does Lewis mean? By “fully informed” he seems to mean, when he sees the afterlife with his own eyes, and finally knows what’s what. Such knowledge is irrelevant to Christians. This whole paradigm is wrong. No sensible evidence is needed because God is happy to speak to us directly, creator-to-soul, and does so all the time. — Srap Tasmaner
The Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults (RCIA), or Ordo Initiationis Christianae Adultorum, is a process developed by the Catholic Church for its catechumenate for prospective converts to the Catholic faith above the age of infant baptism. Candidates are gradually introduced to aspects of Catholic beliefs and practices. The basic process applies to adults and children who have reached catechetical age. [1]
/.../
For those who wish to join, an RCIA process - it is a period of reflection, prayer, instruction, discernment, and formation. There is no set timetable, and those who join the process are encouraged to go at their own pace and to take as much time as they need.
US bishops have said that the process "should extend for at least one year for formation, instruction, and probation" for those who have had no previous experience with living a Christian life.[5] However, "nothing ... can be settled a priori. The time spent in the catechumenate should be long enough—several years if necessary—for the conversion and faith of the catechumens to become strong."[6] For those who have some experience leading a Christian life, the process should be much shorter, "according to the individual case."[7]
Those who enter the process are expected to begin attending Mass on a Sunday, participate in regular faith formation activities, and to become increasingly involved in the activities of their local parish.
I like the use of “invoke” there: you pray to your gods, they pray to theirs. — Srap Tasmaner
Is God beyond our petty and all too tellurian morality? But if so, then why follow his edicts, why pursue a place in heaven? — Isaac
Because you have faith. — Srap Tasmaner
We’re here because Banno believes Davidson refuted incommensurability in all its forms, and that means religious experience must be translatable without loss into terms he can understand. I doubt that — Srap Tasmaner
no Christian believes themselves to be in a position to evaluate God’s job performance. — Srap Tasmaner
But why should I care? — Srap Tasmaner
Christians are specifically enjoined not to judge the state of another's soul.
It seems to bother Lewis that they believe he will be judged, even if not by them. It bothers him that they "support" this judgy asshole in the sky
faith that... — Isaac
frank
Well do expand then. I'd hate to miss a good story. — Isaac
But why should I care?
— Srap Tasmaner
Because they hold it against you. — baker
Many Christians literally can’t stomach criticizing their god even a little bit. Much less as harsh as Lewis has done. For whatever reason, (their upbringing, they’re too afraid, they think he is perfect..whatever). They just don’t. — laura ann
True atheist does not defend atheism.Do you not fear their revenge for offending them and their God with your atheism? — baker
There are 2 kinds of atheists, those who don't believe in God and those who believe there is no God. — SpaceDweller
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