How is this not a new world order? — Book273

Because that's not what that phrase refers to; Bretton Woods was a new world order; the fall of the Soviet Union etc; we make children take a couple dozen vaccinations before starting school. Been doing it for years. And I thought you said a plague was a "laughable" concern? Now it's the already here? People have some Protestant-entertainment wrestling concept of reality. Global dynamics aren't simple.

The point of the mandates is to segregate the vaccinated and unvaccinated, not the infected and the uninfected. — NOS4A2

SO we have one principle: Limit the exposure of the population to those who are infected or likely to be infected

This gives us two policies:

• Isolate the infected and those who are likely to be infected
• Spare the population from exposure to the unvaccinated

That's sensible, no stupid.

Covid would be considered a plague. The response created a new world order. Just because I am unconcerned about Covid does not mean everyone is. The fear out there is real, as are the steps taken to remain safe from the perceived threat. The world has changed based on these perceptions. The validity of the base is no longer relevant, it is the reality now.

Limit the exposure of the population to those who are infected or likely to be infected — Banno

That would be everyone eh. What's your plan?

↪Cheshire Covid would be considered a plague. The response created a new world order. Just because I am unconcerned about Covid does not mean everyone is. The fear out there is real, as are the steps taken to remain safe from the perceived threat. The world has changed based on these perceptions. The validity of the base is no longer relevant, it is the reality now. — Book273

It's only recently we have had the luxury of not living during some disease outbreaks. In large part due to the long-term proven efficacy of vaccination. Arguably, Covid was things getting back to normal; except used as a political football because lying outright is no longer disqualifying apparently.

That would be everyone eh. — Book273

No. It is overwhelmingly the unvaccinated - those who choose not to act in their own and the community's best interest; and children.

Don't bitch about something that is entirely in your control. If you don't like being cast out, get vaccinated.

Yep. The young folk have no idea what polio, hooping cough, measles, influenza are like.

Those having a bit of a bitch here about separating vaccinated folk from unvaccinated folk: keep in mind that it is their choice to be unvaccinated. Folk need to learn to accept responsibility for their choices... :razz:

except used as a political football because lying outright is no longer disqualifying apparently — Cheshire

Yes. The problem now is what to believe, for everyone. Our military (Canada) admitted that in the early stages of the pandemic (spring 2020) they saw, and acted upon, an opportunity to use Covid as a propaganda experiment. They admitted this, it is not theoretical. They said they only did so for the first three months. (April to end of June). Which aligns with what I experienced at the time. Our information changed, nearly a complete 180, from Thursday to the following Tuesday. Science does not move that quickly, ever. Results are rapid, but disseminating it out and having it reviewed would never happen that fast. Our military did that, our prime minister supported it. This is our government and for some reason, I am supposed believe the shit they shovel my way?

I am vaccinated. You know, until they decide that it isn't enough, and then, magically, the next round will be "the turning point", then the next one, etc. It's all bullshit.

Folk need to learn to accept responsibility for their choices... — Banno

Next time I have a fat guy on the stretcher having a heart attack I will make sure to let him know that Banno says he should have hit the gym and eaten more salad; now accept the responsibility of your choices fatty, and die with dignity. Same with the alcoholics, people that get in car accidents if they were driving too fast...You know. you are completely correct, I will just hang a sign on the ER doors "CLOSED. Banno says deal with your choices"

Yeah, that'll work.

I am vaccinated. — Book273

Then I wasn't referring to you.

As for the rest, the irony was lost on you. Yes, it's complex.

The young folk have no idea what polio, hooping cough, measles, influenza are like. — Banno

Several kinds of influenza are globally endemic.

I am really wondering what comes next. In England, where I am, it still the situation of many aspects of social activities not returning to normal. At the moment, there is the situation of yet another new variant. Many people have taken 3 vaccines and there are still fears of many dying. It is so complex, but the whole situation and the spectrum of fear and so many restrictions is making life so difficult for many and, no one seems to know what, or how many new variants are in our midst.

I am trying to keep positive but it is so difficult because by the February it will be 2 years of coping with the pandemic and, how for many, it is has turned life upside down.

Actually I really like the sign. It has been an ongoing debate in ER's (and medical policy) for decades. Where do we draw the line? Is there a line? Where does personal responsibility fit into this? Example: A basic ER visit runs our government about $3500.00, if the patient came by ambulance it's another $1500 (Provinces vary, but it is all fairly similar). Then x-rays run $500 each. Etc. While sitting on a C-train in Calgary I watched a skateboarder, about 20 years old, doing a railslide down a steel hand rail running down concrete steps with no helmet on. He fell, split his head on the bottom step, and lay there unconscious. I watched the ambulance pick him up and siren away. I worked my 12 hour shift and took the same c-train home, stopping at the same station. I watched the same guy, same skate board, with half his head shaved, still oozing a little blood from at least 40 sutures from his earlier event, DO EXACTLY THE SAME THING AGAIN. Including the wipeout. Landed at exactly the same spot, even bleeding into the dried puddle of his own, 12 hour old, blood. What should we do with this idiot, and others like him? They aren't exactly rare.

, hooping cough, — Banno

Whooping Cough.

Yeah it sucks. Great way to build abdominal muscle though, and lose weight. I still think hitting the gym is a better plan though, less chances of breaking a rib.

2 years of coping with the pandemic and, how for many, it is has turned life upside down — Jack Cummins

Does anyone feel safer there, because of the pandemic response? Here we have healthcare workers resigning at unprecedented rates because we are tired of "optics" with no actual value, being given scripts "to explain the value of the intervention to patients and visitors" even though we don't believe what we are being told. We got into health care to help people, not be a political mouth piece. The decline of healthcare staff is being attributed to Covid Burnout, but in truth, we are mostly tired of being bullied by the employer, mandated to get vaccinated when we don't want the damned thing, and having to edit every time someone asks us about Covid. That is the source of the burnout, not Covid proper.

@jorndoe based on the high transmissibility of omicron, surely this wave will be very fast? (On the bar chart that would translate to a very steep peak and then decline)

I am really wondering what comes next. — Jack Cummins

I will assume it's just a very long haul of the same debate, same restrictions, vaccinations and coronapassports until it fiddles out like the War on Terror.

You see, there was no time the "War on Terror", that started 20 years ago, did come to an end. It's still basically fought in various places. In Iraq the "War on Terror" is still fought, and so is in North Africa. After the disgraceful pullout from Afghanistan people simply don't want to talk about it, to refer to it. The term has vanished from the vocabulary, and the new threat that people are urged to be afraid is China.

Same will be with the Covid-19 pandemic. The virus will simply become similar to influenza A, and the officials will urge people to have the next shot, and then the next. Just as with the annual flu shots. And politicians, health officials, simply will stop referring to the pandemic...as a pandemic. Nobody has the balls to declare that the measures taken now will be ended at a formal time, so they will be there for years to come. Even then when far less people die of Covid than other spreadable diseases.

Perhaps in 2030 when you go to your local medical center, you'll still see some signs about how to prevent COVID-19. And people won't bother about it, but likely many won't shake hands anymore. I assume that will happen: the World will be a colder place with less physical contact with people you don't know. Hand shaking is then such an old gesture then, I guess. Just like the gesture of a man kissing the hand of a woman, it will perhaps become too theatrical.

So I’m going to tell people to get vaccinated, am not morally responsible if it harms them, and won’t pay them any kind of compensation if it does. — Michael

So you command people to do things, or you give them (unsolicited) advice, and you take no responsibility for the outcome if they act accordingly.

I wouldn't dare do that.

Perhaps in 2030 when you go to your local medical center, you'll still see some signs about how to prevent COVID-19. And people won't bother about it, but likely many won't shake hands anymore. I assume that will happen: the World will be a colder place with less physical contact with people you don't know. Hand shaking is then such an old gesture then, I guess. Just like the gesture of a man kissing the hand of a woman, it will perhaps become too theatrical. — ssu

It's so convenient to blame covid for what is actually the general decline of quality in human interaction.

I sometimes watch interviews with people talking about how covid measures are restricting their lives, and how alienated they feel because of them. And I wonder, have these people never gone to school? Do they not work?

What has been the normal, regular, ordinary experience for so many minorites, for those bullied and mobbed, excluded from normal society, has now become a temporary experience for a few more people. And they cry foul?!

I ask you to please consider this: if you given a choice to play Russian roulette with a loaded machine gun with 1999 live bullets and 1 blank; or else with a machine gun with 1999 blanks and 1 live bullet; which machine gun will you choose? — god must be atheist

This is the mentality of mobsters, gamblers, and drug dealers. I am none of that, so I don't reason this way.

We're supposed to have a scientific and ethical approach to the issue of public health.

I wonder if they’ll segregate the vaccinated, just to keep us safe. — NOS4A2

I wonder when (!) they'll start segregating the vaccinated based on which vaccine they've been vaccinated with.
There is already a trend to hold those who got Pfizer in better esteem than others.

No. It is overwhelmingly the unvaccinated - those who choose not to act in their own and the community's best interest; and children.

Don't bitch about something that is entirely in your control. If you don't like being cast out, get vaccinated. — Banno

Exactly. Vaccination is first and foremost a social measure, not a medical one.

The rules permit that a person infected with this disease can congregate with the uninfected,
— NOS4A2

No, they don't. — Banno

They do. All you need is a covid pass, and then you can do anything you want. You can be a superspreader.

The vaccinated folk get a cold. The unvaccinated folk get to go to the ICU. — Banno

Except when they don't.

In Slovenia and some other EU countries, 40% of those hospitalized for covid are vaccinated, 20% of those in ICUs are vaccinated.

If the consequence of congregating is a cold, then there is little need to slow the spread. Any rules still standing are only there to protect the unvaccinated. — Banno

What we're "protecting" first and foremost is the dogma, and the government and the pharmaceutical industry from any and all responsibility.

I question the efficacy of the vaccine. Yes, a whole bunch of people are going to call me names for it, but seriously consider: Vaccination for small pox= no more small pox. Vaccination for measles= no more measles. Same for polio; chicken pox, mumps. You get my point.

Then comes covid...
/.../
After achieving fully vaccinated status : Mask, social distance, limit movement (domestic and international), decrease social interaction, work from home when possible. Virus spreading, people dying. — Book273

Exactly. Covid simply isn't like small pox, or measles, or polio etc. With those diseases, once a person is infected, they mostly get the disease, and it's clear they have it. In contrast, in covid, most people have mild symptoms or none at all. Covid just isn't comparable to those other diseases.

I can get behind the idea that selfish people deserve any negative consequence they reap, I find it a lot harder to get behind the idea that mistaken people do. — Isaac

It's Christian thinking: You deserve eternal suffering if you fail to pick the right religion.

Most victims are people who refused to get a simple vaccine that would keep them safe. — EricH

At the forum, we even have a member who is fully vaccinated, a proponent of vaccination. And who is now sick with covid.

Yes. The problem now is what to believe, for everyone. Our military (Canada) admitted that in the early stages of the pandemic (spring 2020) they saw, and acted upon, an opportunity to use Covid as a propaganda experiment. They admitted this, it is not theoretical. — Book273

They admitted to a counter disinformation operation that targeted a few domestic social media users. Considering disinformation was crippling to the initial hopes of preventing an endemic phase; getting out in front of it does seem like a good idea and within the scope of national security. It just backfired pretty bad , based on what a 5 min google search turns up.

This is our government and for some reason, I am supposed believe the shit they shovel my way? — Book273

They tried to subvert the public conversation and couldn't manage it for more than 3 months? Doesn't sound like much of a threat in general and nearly irrelevant a year later. There's plenty of work that has been done by epidemiologist, so I don't really have any issue finding reliable sources of information.

I'm more concerned with conservative media needing some way to frighten people so they don't rationally question their leadership. They seem to want to frame the whole world into good and evil like a bible story and then sell the emotional relief of being on the side of the "good guys". It's been shocking to see how many people never grow out of this childlike view of the world. The level of fear, anger, and hatred they seem to be forced to maintain has to be devastating to their quality of life. Personally, I don't trust anyone that tells me who to hate.

They do. All you need is a covid pass, and then you can do anything you want. You can be a superspreader. — baker

Being able to circumvent public safety is not the same as the rules encouraging it. Full stop, there's no counter argument. Does twisting the truth achieve anything?

DO EXACTLY THE SAME THING AGAIN. Including the wipeout. Landed at exactly the same spot, even bleeding into the dried puddle of his own, 12 hour old, blood. What should we do with this idiot, and others like him? They aren't exactly rare. — Book273

Flogging. I'm serious. I am sure there is a way to beat a person such that pain is maximized while damage minimized. He - almost always a he, and I'm not brave enough to beat a woman - being stupid and creating trouble and expense, needs to be taught. And flogging just quick enough, simple enough, cheap enough, brutal enough to teach the lesson.

And my cat taught me this lesson. It clawed the rug (a cat can destroy a rug in a day, no problemo). And I reproved cat with loving gentleness. But it was very quickly clear that no communication was happening, until I finally had resorted to clear and unambiguous brutality. That is, I had to communicate with it on its terms.

As a result, the cat, accustomed to stretching on the rug getting its claws ready for a delightful workout, on its next entering the room walked to the edge of the rug, stopped, and then walked around it, following its rectangular shape closely until it reached the windowsill, its destination. Nor was our relationship impaired in the least. Eventually it trusted the rug again, but never thereafter clawed it.

SO we have one principle: Limit the exposure of the population to those who are infected or likely to be infected

This gives us two policies:
Isolate the infected and those who are likely to be infected
Spare the population from exposure to the unvaccinated
That's sensible, no stupid.

In the hands of a stupid government the principle gives us a stupid policy. When a fully vaccinated but infected man shows up at a establishment with a vaccine passport, he gets let in, increasing the likelihood of spread and illness. A vaccine passport does not indicate health or antibodies, and it is terribly discriminatory.

Moderna is testing mRNA flu vaccine

In the hands of a stupid government the principle gives us a stupid policy. When a fully vaccinated but infected man shows up at a establishment with a vaccine passport, he gets let in, increasing the likelihood of spread and illness. A vaccine passport does not indicate health or antibodies, and it is terribly discriminatory. — NOS4A2

A private establishment chooses to statistically reduce the risk to it's staff and patrons. Discriminatory? If one's identity is dependant on resisting public health measures, then it's probably a good time to take a little inventory about what really matters.

800th time, a vaccine doesn't have to be perfect to be relevant. These arguments aren't compelling unless you've already made your mind up.