https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#trends_dailydeaths

With the exception of a slight dip in late November, the average daily death count from COVID has been hovering above 1000 deaths a day since early September. We know that the the overwhelming majority of deaths occur amongst the un-vaxed; and we also know (as well as we can know anything) that the majority of these misguided folks are Trump supporters.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/12/05/1059828993/data-vaccine-misinformation-trump-counties-covid-death-rate

If this trend continues, the logical consequence is that (all other variables kept constant) come November 2022 there will be some 300K fewer Trump supporters. But this information leaves this left winger very conflicted.

Will 300K fewer Trump votes help tip the balance in favor of the Democrats? If yes, then this would seem to be a good thing.

But full stop on that thought. My crazy un-vaxed cousin in Florida died and her son was hospitalized and close to death (seems to be doing better so far). I do not want any more deaths from this thing and I do not wish anyone to die . . . . OK maybe Trump, but that's it.

So how should a person feel about this?

- - - - - - - - -
Meta Note: I don't follow this conversation on a thread on a regular basis, but it seems pretty wide ranging. I am only interested in replies that are on topic. What do I mean by that?

If you disagree with my political stance and think I should become a Libertarian/Marxist/Buddhist? That's fine - but I will not respond to any such replies.
If you are a crazed conspiracy theorist and think that the data is faked? That's not fine - but I will not respond to any such replies.
And yes! Yes! Of course if everyone got vaccinated that would resolve my mixed feelings. But that's not gonna happen, so no point in bringing it up.

So how should a person feel about this?

But enough about me, what do you think about me?

Alas - you have grievously wounded me with your powerful Sword of Sarcasm.

If you disagree with my political stance and think I should become a Libertarian/Marxist/Buddhist? That's fine - but I will not respond — EricH

If you are a crazed conspiracy theorist and think that the data is faked? That's not fine - but I will not respond — EricH

Sums up how the thread has gone...

"I'll only respond to people who already agree with me"

"I'll only respond to people who already agree with me" — Isaac

Perhaps I was not clear. I am asking a very narrow question. I'll try to re-phrase. If Trump republicans (for whatever reasons) are committing voluntary suicide in large numbers, should I (as a left winger) cynically approve of this behavior for possible political benefit?

I am asking an ethical question - given the particular set of facts that I presented - how should a person feel / behave?

Really? Then I strongly suggest you seek some professional psychological help. If you're seriously asking whether you should be pleased that thousands of people are dying, just because they happen to be of a different political persuasion...

I assumed it was a rhetorical device...

:roll:

Three teenagers from the indigenous Binjari community recently escaped from one of Australia’s internment facilities — NOS4A2

The facility seems a frightening place — NOS4A2

Obergruppenführer Michael Gunner — NOS4A2

Were they interned in order to send them to the gas chamber?
How long were they expected to be interned (and for what intent)?

Denying fundamental rights on a hunch is ludicrous. — NOS4A2

It's not a hunch. — Benkei

@NOS4A2, your skewed verbiage betrays an ideological ulterior motive.
SARS-CoV-2 doesn't care.

It appears that a lot of the new viral infections that have cropped up in the last 30 or 40 years come from bats. Why bats? For various reasons, bats have very tolerant immune systems: they can harbor all sorts of viruses without getting sick, and without destroying the viruses. So when people come in contact with bat feces, bat urine, or bat blood (whatever), or trade in wild animals that have come into contact with bats, they are likely to become sick with something humans have not previously encountered. That's the story for ebola, for example. The covid-19 virus could have bat origins too -- don't know, just speculating. — Bitter Crank

What is it like to be a bat? — Thomas Nagel (1937 - )

Answer: Now we know!

:up:

The arrival of coronavirus just ahead of the presidential election of 2020 seemed like "the most fortuitous pandemic in the history of the world" for the Democratic Party, recalls Mark [Valentine]. — Pro-Trump counties now have far higher COVID death rates. Misinformation is to blame (Dec 5, 2021)

I guess there's no accounting for adults that haven't grown up.
Fortunately others do.

Phil Valentine’s family urges listeners to get the shot — Tennessee radio host doubted and mocked vaccines – now he has Covid (Jul 24, 2021)

:grin:

Italian man tries to dodge Covid vaccine wearing fake arm (Dec 3, 2021)

A new market for silicone prosthetics?
"Want to hit the bar scene unvaccinated? We can help."

Were they interned in order to send them to the gas chamber?

I wrote:

“The authorities had initially rounded them up and interned them, it appears, for the non-crime of being in contact with covid-positive people, not because they carried any virus or posed any sort of threat.”

ur skewed verbiage betrays an ideological ulterior motive.
SARS-CoV-2 doesn't care.

Ur disapproval of my verbiage betrays yours.

Denying fundamental rights on a hunch is ludicrous. — NOS4A2

It's not a hunch. — Benkei

Were they interned in order to send them to the gas chamber?
How long were they expected to be interned (and for what intent)? — jorndoe

I already mentioned why they were interred, and none of it mentioned any gas chambers.

... but didn't get to SARS-CoV-2 containment (and tracking of proliferation vectors)? :brow:

How long were they expected to be interned (and for what intent)? — again

They tested negative. They contained exactly zero SARS-CoV-2. What they did contain were innocent, healthy children.

Thank you for the frank and unambiguous response. In of itself, I don't believe that experiencing schadenfreude is a sign of mental illness - provided you acknowledge it.

Schadenfreude

I don't believe that experiencing schadenfreude is a sign of mental illness - provided you acknowledge it. — EricH

Ah, so "most victims are anti-vax Trump supporters and brought it on themselves" is just harmless schadenfreude

How about "most victims are overweight, or suffer from similarly lifestyle inflicted comorbidities, so brought it on themselves"?

Similarly healthy bit of schadenfreude?

How about "most victims are overweight, or suffer from similarly lifestyle inflicted comorbidities, so brought it on themselves"? — Isaac

I don't think most victims are overweight or suffer from diseases they chose to have, but it's true that morbidly obese people don't usually survive it (in my experience).

How about "most victims are overweight, or suffer from similarly lifestyle inflicted comorbidities, so brought it on themselves"? — Isaac

Most victims are people who refused to get a simple vaccine that would keep them safe.

harmless schadenfreude — Isaac

Can you give me an example of harmful schadenfreude? If you want to make the case that I'm somehow hurting myself by feeling this way, I do feel guilty/conflicted so point taken. But otherwise, I can't see how I'm hurting anyone.

I mourn my dead cousin.

I feel sorry for these poor deluded folks, but I'm also angry at them for causing so much needless suffering.

They tested negative. They contained exactly zero SARS-CoV-2. — NOS4A2

... What do you think they were trying to ascertain?
Thus, they were off to the quarantine centre, like others, per their protocols.
I guess the Aussies put a thorough+swift protocol in place for pandemic containment/tracking, which seems sensible enough.
Did you think it was just fun and games (or "Obergruppenführer Michael Gunner" executing nefarious endlösungs)?

How long were they expected to be interned (and for what intent)? — again again

I don't think most victims are overweight or suffer from diseases they chose to have — frank

Most victims are people who refused to get a simple vaccine that would keep them safe. — EricH

Oh yes, I forgot to mention... I'm not interested in the opinions of any "crazed conspiracy theorists" who disagree with me about the health status of most victims.

Can you give me an example of harmful schadenfreude? — EricH

Yes. Thinking that thousands of people who died somehow deserved it because they had a different political outlook to you. If you can't see the harm that does to your moral virtue and the potential harm that being that kind of shockingly naive bigot could bring about then I doubt my pointing it out at this stage would be any more than throwing stones at a tank.

, what the story doesn't report, is whether the kids and their peers were properly informed.
Snatched off the street at gunpoint (like your comments may suggest)?
Treated well enough and kept in the loop?
Since it's Australia, I'm guessing a reasonably civilized/humane approach, but maybe not?

Since it's Australia, I'm guessing a reasonably civilized/humane approach — jorndoe

Ahh yes, civilised internment against their will.

"Would you mind awfully if we imprisoned you for a few weeks?...cup of tea?"

'Cos people are forever scaling fences to escape from civilised, humane treatment.

I suspect they had in mind Australia's notoriously civilised and humane treatment of its indigenous population.

https://www.welcometocountry.org/australias-brutal-treatment-of-aboriginal-people/

https://hir.harvard.edu/police-violence-australia-aboriginals/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australia-accused-of-genocide-against-aborigines-1263163.html

What could they possibly have had to worry about when forcibly put behind a fence?

The Alexander Fleming (father of antibiotics) "technique"

What you gotta do is "accidentally" contaminate a viral (Covid-19) culture with bacteria/fungi (penicillium or other species) and come back after a day/week later and be "amazed" at how the viral culture did so poorly. Add two and two together and voila! we have a cure for viral infections!

Evolution is the solution - the bacteria/fungi that have defenses (antiviral molecules) against the virus will be selected for and then you know what to do after that, right?!

And, of course, it's not just the indigenous people who are suffering, though they are more so. Even the vaccinated have to, in big brother style, register via a QR code when they go to a shop. IOW they must tell the government 'here I am' and 'now I am here'. People cannot travel far. Restrictions all around. And of course the unvaccinated are in home detention. The government keeps taking on more powers and there is talk, not just there, about a permanent series of vaccinations.

If some Eastern Block nation starting doing what Australia is doing but to, say, Jews or Roma, there would be an internation outcry, led by the Left. But since ANYTHING that make ANYONE question ANYTHING to do with vaccines must be silenced or some 5 year old in California won't get vaccinated against a disease they cannot get,

SILENCE.

In Austria, a year in jail for non-compliance is not on the table and Germany looks set to follow suit.

If you never feel even the slightest twinge of schadenfreude when bad things happen to people who are trying to harm you, than you are a better person than me (and most people).

Seriously.

people who are trying to harm you — EricH

People who are trying to harm you and people who happen to harm you because they are wrong are two very different categories of people.

This seems to be another common theme here, judging other people's intents using your beliefs. Other people act on the basis of their beliefs, not yours.

So if you believe taking the vaccine is the best way to look after people, you can't judge others as selfish and heartless for not taking the vaccine. That would only be fair if they also thought the vaccine is the best way to look after people, yet didn't take it. If they think the vaccine is overall more harmful then you'd judge them to be mistaken, not selfish.

I can get behind the idea that selfish people deserve any negative consequence they reap, I find it a lot harder to get behind the idea that mistaken people do.

You might as well argue that we shouldn't advise someone to fly rather drive across the country in winter because it's possible that the plane will crash — Michael

You capture the problem quite nicely. Flying is statistically safer than driving, however there is absolutely no aspect of control with flying, unless you are the pilot. If one does want to rely on the competence of others, with no ability to change the outcome, then flying is the way to go. However, if one would rather own the responsibility of risk, have the potential to change, or at least react, to any adverse conditions that arise while in motion, then driving is hands down the way to go.

Personally I hate flying. Absolutely no control involved in flying, just sit in your chair and hope that none of your pilots are feeling suicidal on that trip, because if they are, by the time you know about it, everyone on board is already screwed. I would rather drive and the mileage on my vehicles reflect that.
I will not advise someone to fly. I will always advise them to do what they are comfortable with. Fly, drive, walk, whatever. It is their call because any consequences of that choice is on them, not me.

If one does not want to rely on the competence of others, with no ability to change the outcome, then flying is the way to go. However, if one would rather own the responsibility of risk, have the potential to change, or at least react, to any adverse conditions that arise while in motion, then driving is hands down the way to go. — Book273

Exactly. There's this assumption that once one has two risk figures the decision is clear, as if humans take nothing else into account in their decision-making other than crunching the numbers.

It's odd that on the same site people can puzzle about the morality of deliberately killing one fat man vs merely allowing the deaths of five workers (various trolley problems), most are baffled as to why anyone would make any risk-based decision on any basis other than seeing which number is bigger than the other.

I reserve my right to speak in dysphemism, especially when it comes to matters of injustice and tyranny. These kids didn’t go to the internment camp on their own free will.

And the protocols are not sensible, but stupid; they treat healthy people as threats to public safety, in potentia. They are literally premised on fear and ignorance.