I don't wanna deny you everything. I just say cars are the cause of many accidents, Mortal ones included. So all cars should be banned, including the roads they travel on. Like all no vaxing should be banned in your eyes. — Cartuna

I don't think it would do much good to ban anti-vaxers from public life, even if that were somehow possible, if that's what you're suggesting. Vaccination is not generally mandatory. If employers want to make it mandatory that's their prerogative. It's a free country, after all.

Also, Riley has repeatedly pointed out that driving is heavily regulated. People with DUI's are banned, for example.

Wait, I didn't think you got to use that argument? Everything causes death and injury.
— James Riley

Yeah, so why bother about non-vaxing? — Cartuna

Yeah, why bother, just get vaccinated.

Just go drive in your nice car and pollute my fresh air! Have a nice trip!

We treat what comes in, when it comes in. We don't sit at the door in judgement and decide who is worthy of saving or not. — Book273

This is already happening here, though. Individual people report that their GP refused to see them if they are not vaccinated.

We have spent so much investing in this fear response, we can't let it go now, it would be wasted effort. — Book273

History has shown what people united by dogma can do. It's hard to say no to that.

Quick question: if the vaccines actually work why the fuck am I still wearing a mask and why does anyone that has been vaccinated give two shits about Covid?

It looks like a sign of the times: a small improvement, but advertised as a major breakthrough.
It's like those tv ads selling kitchen appliances, thermo socks, mini heaters, wart removers, and so on: "Buy this and your life will turn around completely!"

Society at large has lost all sense of proportion.

You keep evading the question of the moral responsibility of pro-vaccers.

So the call to consciousness ("you're selfish if you don't vax") is just a cry of fear coming out of vaxed mouths. — Cartuna

Not just fear. It reflects the human craving for uniformity: "Everyone should do the same thing, be the same, even if in the process of becoming so, they die."


Last week, Greece made it mandatory for people over 60 to get vaccinated. The government official who announced the measure listed as one of the reasons for it that it is out of solidarity with the already vaccinated that those not yet vaccinated should get vaccinated. He didn't further specifiy, but it seems he meant something like, "if other people took the risk and got vaccinated, then you should do so too".

Not just fear. It reflects the human craving for uniformity: "Everyone should do the same thing, be the same, even if in the process of becoming so, they die." — baker

There seems to be evidence for this kind of tribalism.



The weird thing is that Trump is always boasting about how he made the vaccine available, and he advises people to get it, though he also respects his follower's freedom (without responsibility). There's too much politicized anti-vax momentum, and it's litterally killing them.

I just don't wanna be vaxed. That's all.

That’s the only excuse one should need to provide, as far as self-ownership is concerned. Anything else presupposes a slavish relationship between individual and “public health”.

People can die from surgery. I’m still going to suggest that people who have internal injuries or tumours or whatever have surgery. People can choke on a toothbrush, but I’m still going to tell them to brush their teeth.

Vaccines reduce the chance of death and serious illness from COVID, are less dangerous than COVID, and require minimal time, effort, and cost to get. So I’m going to tell people to get vaccinated, am not morally responsible if it harms them, and won’t pay them any kind of compensation if it does.

So I’m going to tell people to get vaccinated, am not morally responsible if it harms them, and won’t pay them any kind of compensation if it does. — Michael

IOW, it's perfectly okay to throw a certain percentage of the population under the bus.

Princess, there is no war.

Nothing has changed. There is always a bug waiting to get you, always something new and terrible. This time the argument is happening publicly, that's all. Everyone has an opinion, but very few play in actual field. So if all the spectators can shut the hell up, those of us actually involved, trained and formally educated for this stuff, can get to work and do our job.

The war analogy is demeaning to those who actually fought in wars. Adjusting your mask while ordering a latte has nothing to do with war. Anyone that thinks they are comparable is delusional.

Note the collectivist reasoning. “Sometimes you have to do things that are unpopular” (not moral or immoral) for reasons that “clearly supersede individual choices” and are “directed at the common good”. So many rights have been sacrificed on the alter of similar reasoning.

sure. But are you going to keep forking over money for nothing? Paying little for nothing is still a waste of money.

So many rights have been sacrificed on the alter of similar reasoning. — NOS4A2

And that's because Americans collectivize pretty easily.

I only regret I have but one life to give for my country. Ask not what your country can do for you...

A country's values are sometimes at odds with their basic nature. IOW, values are set out to explain the goal: what we wish we were. Americans are basically a bunch of sheep who wish they were wolves.


My guess is the same is true of people who routinely speak out against collectivism. They're afraid of their own tendency to give up their identities to the group. Why else would they go on and on about it?

Everyone has an opinion, but very few play in actual field. So if all the spectators can shut the hell up, those of us actually involved, trained and formally educated for this stuff, can get to work and do our job. — Book273

We're all involved, and we each have education and training in stuff. You might want to be specific enough for this to have some meaning.

Let me guess, your job is to advise the public not to waste their time with vaccinations.

Not telling people to get vaccinated throws a greater percentage under the bus.

Either way, people get thrown under the bus. And that's apparently okay.

Everyone has an opinion, but very few play in actual field. So if all the spectators can shut the hell up, those of us actually involved, trained and formally educated for this stuff, can get to work and do our job. — Book273

It is morally reprehensible that the government has left it to individuals to decide whether to get vaccinated or not, and with which vaccine.

So many people complain, "Oh, these days, everyone's an epidemiologist!" Yet this is the situation that the government has pushed us in! We have to make life or death decisions about things we're not qualified for.

my job is to provide emergency healthcare to those who need it. Emergency rooms, ICU and critical patient transport is my playground and specialty.

I believe in informed consent and personal autonomy. I advocate for my patient, for best outcomes according to the patient's values and their family's values if the patient cannot convey their wishes. I do not follow public opinion for patient care. I follow best practices, peer reviewed journals to guide practice, and clear defensible ethics. Not mob rules. Panic makes for poor policy which leads to disaster.

That’s true about Americans, as far as I can see.

I would go on and on about collectivism mostly because it is immoral. It is premised on compulsory cooperation, and if that doesn’t work, force, coercion and violence. All one needs do is evoke the common good to justify immoral behavior towards one’s fellows.

Ah, so not an epidemiologist.

I absolutely agree. Healthcare should have determined a clear course of action and moved forward with it. Rather than mandating vaccination, open honest discussion should have occurred to provide the best solution for everyone. Unfortunately that did not happen, fear and media collaborated to create an environment of uncertainty. Now open and honest discussion, questioning of information to provide clarity, is interrpreted as being anti-vaccination, when it is more accurately defined as informed vaccination or informed declining of vaccination. I have never told a patient not to get vaccinated, I have advocated that they make the best informed decision they can based on their values and supported whatever final decision they made. I find it disheartening that this is now determined to be anti-vaccine.

I would go on and on about collectivism mostly because it is immoral — NOS4A2

No. It's because you think you're a sheep.

Only an epidemiologist has valuable input here? Ok. Would everyone not an epidemiologist please no longer contribute, I look forward to the silence.

Maybe we can have that applied universally as well, and shut the media up too.

I like it!

Yep. The Nazis were working toward their common good.

Common good: the mother of all evil.

You wrote: "So if all the spectators can shut the hell up, those of us actually involved, trained and formally educated for this stuff, can get to work and do our job."

So I assumed you were a specialist in the field of infectious diseases such as an epidemiologist. I am impressed by your work in the ER and critical patient transport though. Mom must be proud.

Vaccines reduce the chance of death and serious illness from COVID, are less dangerous than COVID, — Michael

Which doesn't matter at all when _you_ are the one who suffers the negative side effects of the vaccine. Such as paralysis after a stroke.


The same arguments that are good when applied to the population as a whole are not the same arguments as those that are good when applied to the individual person.
We see the former all the time, but not the latter.

Which doesn't matter at all when _you_ are the one who suffers the negative side effects of the vaccine. Such as paralysis after a stroke.


The same arguments that are good when applied to the population as a whole are not the same arguments as those that are good when applied to the individual person.
We see the former all the time, but not the latter. — baker

Unless you know ahead of time that the person is more at risk from the vaccine than the virus then the sensible advice is to get the vaccine.

You might as well argue that we shouldn't advise someone to fly rather drive across the country in winter because it's possible that the plane will crash.

Vaccines reduce the chance of death and serious illness from COVID, are less dangerous than COVID,
— Michael

Which doesn't matter at all when _you_ are the one who suffers the negative side effects of the vaccine. Such as paralysis after a stroke. — baker

You can successfully determine before hand the CHANCES ahead of time, and you can't at all determine before hand the CERTAIN individual outcome.

So... 1999 in 2000 will benefit, and 1 in 2000 will become ill... we don't know which I am going to be, and I don't know anyone who can tell me for sure.

This means that 1999 will defend against coronavirus, and 1 will not.

I ask you to please consider this: if you given a choice to play Russian roulette with a loaded machine gun with 1999 live bullets and 1 blank; or else with a machine gun with 1999 blanks and 1 live bullet; which machine gun will you choose?

“Berlin: Homeless people without 3G (fully vaccinated, tested, or recovered) proof are no longer allowed to seek refuge from the cold on platforms. The Senate regrets the decision, but remains tough.”

https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/news/3g-in-berlin-senat-verbannt-obdachlose-von-bahnsteigen-l

It’s not surprising how cruel the Covid authoritarian is, but they do it under the guise of protecting others. We should start asking for proof of how many people they’ve protected. Get them to point to one.