I don't deny that people have different (subjective?) experiences of music, I just think that music can also be described more or less objectively, and that there is therefore an objective basis for what we focus our attention on.

I read a book on logic recently, called'The Art of Logic: How to Make Sense in a World That Doesn't,' by Eugenia Cheng(2019). The author shows how logic, including the basics of maths, is a foundation 'to verify and establish the truth'. However, the following statement may be applicable to this thread discussion on music in relation to emotions:
'Emotions and logic do not have to be enemies. Logic works perfectly in the abstract mathematical world. But life is more complicated than that. Life involves humans, and humans have emotions'.

So, music helps soothe emotions and can be cathartic. I often find some really dark music can be cathartic and uplifting, although I do like 'The Logical Song', by Supertramp — Jack Cummins

And so, The Hard Problem of Logic.

I've said this before and I'll say it again if it matters at all. Emotions, save, like always, in some cases, are usually effects. They do cause stuff (more on this later), but it's them as effects that I'll focus on. We experience all kinds of emotions - love, lust, anger, hate, and s on - and they all tend to be elicited by very specific stimuli which I'm sure I won't have to spell out as it's common knowledge. The point I'm trying to make is that there are patterns in emotions and their causes and just like there's a perfectly good reason why when we water a plant regularly, tend to its soil, and keep it in the sun, it makes for a healthy plant, there has to be or I suspect there is logic to emotions.

I once remarked in another thread that the most vital - mission critical - components of life seem to be reflexive i.e. consciousness is bypassed or short circuited. I suppose the rationale behind this is to buy us time for, in a very narrow sense, the fight/flight response. Emotions, under this reading, are like you crying "ouch!" and pulling away your hands from a hot pan in your kitchen. This is called, I think, the spinal pain reflex. There's a very good reason for this: The "ouch!" alerts others who might be able to come to your aid and the sudden, completely unconscious, withdrawal of your hand prevents severe injury. As you can see there's a really good reason we shouldn't be thinking in certain situations. Emotions could be just like that, there's a rationale to them; it's just that evolution, in its "wisdom", has decided that there really is no point ratiocinating on the matter, react instantly and with force is the rule in the emotional sphere.

Now to music as an cause. Play the right kind of music, I'm told, and you can make a man do anything. It sets the mood and mood has a huge part in motivation. Figure the rest out Jack Cummins, truthseeker.

Thanks :up:

I hear you. Albeit subjectively :rofl:

And I'm not denying there's an objective element: I brought up natural harmonics, etc. The objective stuff is interesting, but the subjective element -- how we _feel_ about a piece of music, and why -- is more interesting.

I appreciate your focus on attention. As a young person, I liked what I liked as an immediate response to music but learned a lot from people drawing my attention to how time, anticipation, and sounds coming together worked in very different performances. Coming to recognize when musicians were really playing together helped me open up to what had not been in my experience before.

So the qualitative differences between singers like e.g. Madonna & Ella Fitzgerald or bassists like e.g. Bill Wyman & Jaco Pastorius or songwriters like e.g. Drake & Prince are merely, or mostly, "subjective"? :chin:

I don't deny that people have different (subjective?) experiences of music, I just think that music can also be described more or less objectively, and that there is therefore an objective basis for what we focus our attention on. — coolazice

True. It's been proven (?) that the sound of bass (guitar) is very, very attractive to our ears. So I guess, that's objectively quantifiable truth that we are drawn to bass sounds.

That doesn't obviously relate to what I wrote. What do you mean?

Nevermind. I now see I've misread your post.

Okay. Well, after some thought, I'm gonna give my answer to the question anyway because I like the subject

There are technical and biographical differences between Madonna and Fitzgerald that are obviously objectively true, but mostly dry. What those differences can exploit, however, is subjectively appraised.

I had more in mind composition (since I personally value this above technical musicianship: big Tom Waits fan, not into Celine Dion). The purpose of music is to generate or else reinforce subjective judgements (even if by way of making money) and the interesting questions to me are along the lines of: which features of the music are responsible for these judgements?

Because you can say, yes, this pre-chorus had used diminished 7ths as tritone substitutions going up the scale and minor 7ths going down, objectively, but "giving it a gliding, transitory feel that heightens the force of the chorus" is subjective, whether that be in a personal context or a cultural one (e.g. how the use of bosanova in that pre-chorus affects the listener). And for a songwriter, making technical choices about composition and arrangement is how they attempt to generate the desired subjective appraisals.

No one is writing for a computer. They may be trying to create a whole new genre, write outside of any genre, develop or subvert an existing genre, or use what's proven to work to make a buck, but everything is still hitting a target audience: a group of people who have similar subjective appraisals about certain technical choices, distinct from people outside that target audience who have different appraisals of the same choices.

I think that you are right to emphasise the power of music and how it can make someone do -'anything'. It has a hypnotic quality. I do wonder about the subliminal levels of music. Of course, this could go too far with the attempt to remove all 'negativity'. However, even though I like the music of Nirvana, my intuition is that it would probably not be a good idea to listen to that music all day. Even though I love the Doors, I do try to balance out what I listen to because music probably affects us so deeply, and getting the right balance may be essential. Sometimes, I just spend so much time thinking what music to listen to.

Sometimes, I just spend so much time thinking what music to listen to. — Jack Cummins

Perhaps you should listen to this:
[url=http://]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgvknp5kxlo[/url]

Everyone is keeping to their own time signature.

I think that you are right to emphasise the power of music and how it can make someone do -'anything'. It has a hypnotic quality. I do wonder about the subliminal levels of music. Of course, this could go too far with the attempt to remove all 'negativity'. However, even though I like the music of Nirvana, my intuition is that it would probably not be a good idea to listen to that music all day. Even though I love the Doors, I do try to balance out what I listen to because music probably affects us so deeply, and getting the right balance may be essential. Sometimes, I just spend so much time thinking what music to listen to. — Jack Cummins

Wait till the government gets wind of the power of music.

I haven't the slightest idea what happened between Islam and music.

Strictly speaking, the words ‘Islamic religious music’ present a contradiction in terms. The practice of orthodox Sunni and Shi‘a Islam does not involve any activity recognized within Muslim cultures as ‘music’. The melodious recitation of the Holy Qur'an and the call to prayer are central to Islam, but generic terms for music have never been applied to them. Instead, specialist designations have been used. However, a wide variety of religious and spiritual genres that use musical instruments exists, usually performed at various public and private assemblies outside the orthodox sphere. — Eckhard Neubauer, Veronica Doubleday, Islamic religious music, New Grove Dictionary of Music online

Islamic geometric patterns.

A certain door was closed shut and quite literally sealed. Another was meant to be opened...

Sound tiling/tessellations: Shaped sounds covering space in intricate geometric patterns.

Sine waves can tile a surface. :grin:

:chin: