But Narcissus was sooo beautiful, people could not resist him--even if he'd just as soon they go bother somebody else — Bitter Crank

That is actually a problem for people who are so attractive, the fascination of other people becomes a burden to them. The terrible symmetry of the story of Narcissus is that he becomes one of the spectators he hates.

The terrible symmetry of the story of Narcissus is that he becomes one of the spectators he hates. — Valentinus

Could you expand on that a bit. From which part of which version of the myth did you find this idea?

The obsession to attend the picture in the reflection is odd. From the version you cited, the fascination is no different from the one consuming Echo. The attraction here is being separated from who is locked into them. From that point of view, it is not about the "self" at all.

So, Narcissus is locked into an external image (his reflection) rather than self? Echo is at least obsessed by the man and not the reflection of the man.

Your interpretation is a plausible explication of the psychological disorder of narcissism. The narcissist is less involved with his actual self than with his projected self -- the "image self' the real self thinks he or she is.

So Donald Trump, seriously put forward as an example of narcissism, is less infatuated the "real" DT and more infatuated with the DT he imagines himself to be. Egotists, who always put themselves first, may be more realistic about themselves than the narcissist.

A varying amount of narcissism seems like a normal component of personality (because nobody is perfect, save me and thee, and even thee is a bit crazy). Just speaking for myself... objectively I know that my long-term performance on earth has been in the middling range -- sometimes in the basement. Only once in a while have I peaked out in the higher ranges of performance, and then briefly. The image I like to see in the mirror, however, is more accomplished, suave, sophisticated, less of a clod. I have learned that most other people don't buy the suave sophisticate version, so I pretty much restrict it to private viewing.

All this is probably another feature of the normal personality, neuroticism is OK (but only in SMALL doses). The five features are: extraversion, agreeableness, conscientiousness, emotional stability, and openness to experience. Neuroticism affects emotional stability.

That darn mirror, whether held by Trump or Lacan.

Yes, Egoists do exhibit more situational awareness but are not trying to change what is happening beyond their own conception of fortune.

Macbeth goes on a killing spree after talking to three homeless persons in a forest.
Oedipus brings about what his parents feared as a direct result of their attempts to stop that result after having been warned against the possibility.

I don't know. A pattern is coming into view.

More damned mirrors



Viktor Safonkin, The Mirror Drinker, 2020

So Donald Trump, seriously put forward as an example of narcissism, is less infatuated the "real" DT and more infatuated with the DT he imagines himself to be. Egotists, who always put themselves first, may be more realistic about themselves than the narcissist. — Bitter Crank

I don't think there's a substantive difference between egotists and narcissists. A narcissistic personality disorder is a continuum and comes in mild to sever forms, with or without some insight. Plenty of room in this space for Trump and, say, an instagram influencer.

That is one strange image.
The drinker isn't looking at the mirror.
The statue behind him seems to be watching.
And what is with the triangles printed on the hand of the statue?

yes, it's strange. I have no idea what the artist was intending. I just tripped over the painting on Tumblr after reading your comment about that damn mirror.

The utter irrelevance of other people, envious or pitying is the essence of Narcissus. — unenlightened

But he was just a literary character. A literary construct, constructed by the author to make some point.


- - -

But Narcissus was sooo beautiful, people could not resist him--even if he'd just as soon they go bother somebody else. Maybe such people are born for real who are irresistibly beautiful and who do not need the help of agents and PR to attract admirers. I think these characters are more fictional vehicles than real. — Bitter Crank

In highschool, I knew a boy who looked like Snow White: a pale, fair complexion, perfect skin, sparkly blue eyes, pitch black straight shiny hair, red lips, perfect white teeth, slim, tall, well-proportioned body. He was so beautiful that it was hard not to stare at him. (But he stopped being so attractive once he opened his mouth and sounded exactly like every other teenager.)

I met him about ten years later, I could hardly recognize him. The pale complexion turned reddish, his hair was already thinning, the lustre of his eyes was gone.

Time ... is a sobering agent.

So Donald Trump, seriously put forward as an example of narcissism, is less infatuated the "real" DT and more infatuated with the DT he imagines himself to be. — Bitter Crank

Or the whole thing is a PR strategy and he's not a narcissist at all, he only plays one, as an actor. It's feasible to do so, because in our society, people tend to succomb to narcissists one way or another and narcissits can take advantage of that. Directly, by doing what the narcissist wants, or indirectly by freely giving them their time of day (instead of spending it on more productive pursuits).

(But he stopped being so attractive once he opened his mouth and sounded exactly like every other teenager.) — baker

In other words, shut up when you are ahead in the game.

I met him about ten years later, I could hardly recognize him. The pale complexion turned reddish, his hair was already thinning, the lustre of his eyes was gone.

Alas, vanishing youth.

I believe, as simply as I can, Narcissus lived an unremarkable life in ancient times, fell in love with himself, and by psychologists got called a narcissist (the causality is clear), and this we remember him to this day?

This all strikes me as strange, or telling of our times. What do you think about all this, as stated, or am I missing something here?

The only person comparable who enjoyed such a life, would be, to myself, Nero(?) — Shawn

The part you got wrong is that he actually did as he was described to have done or that it is at all relevant whether he actually did as he is said to have done. Such is the case with myths and parables.

Let's not spend time asking why the hare even thought it would be an interesting contest with the tortoise either. That would miss the point.

But back to point, consumption with self leads to destruction might be one way to say what it says. That's a most general statement at least.

But back to point, consumption with self leads to destruction might be one way to say what it says. That's a most general statement at least. — Hanover

I'm puzzled to think that this is true, regardless as to whether this was once thought as true.

Why would you think that, that is true? Is that a hallmark of narcissism?

Or the whole thing is a PR strategy and he's not a narcissist at all, he only plays one, as an actor. It's feasible to do so, because in our society, people tend to succomb to narcissists one way or another and narcissits can take advantage of that. — baker

Interesting insight, I think it is true that narcissism can be attractive, provided it comes in a reasonably attractive package. It doesn't always. We do like to believe in people who believe in themselves.

But back to point, consumption with self leads to destruction might be one way to say what it says. That's a most general statement at least. — Hanover

That does get to the observation in the story that noticed Narcissus was not conquering cities or promoting world peace but was paralyzed by an obsession with an image that turned all action into the obsession.

That other people could see whatever came from this as a principle of action is odd. Or, at least, worth a moment of consideration before accepting such a process as the normal course of events.

I'm puzzled to think that this is true, regardless as to whether this was once thought as true.

Why would you think that, that is true? Is that a hallmark of narcissism? — Shawn

I guess we all bring our own perspectives to the art we encounter, and I admit that my personal belief is that happiness is related to giving to and thinking of others. The paradox would then be that selfishness leads to self-destruction, but I recognize my view of happiness places a low premium on self-aggrandizement. I don't know that Trump, for instance, would buy into my view of happiness and I'd be hard pressed to convince him that he'd be happier not being in constant self admiration mode.

I suspect narcissism has been insufficiently described and needs to be seen in broader allegorical terms. Hence Martha Nussbaum's observation that like Narcissus, philosophy falls in love with its own image and drowns. She was making the point in a New Yorker interview that philosophy can be scientifically abstract and disengaged with the problems of it's time.

I see that you are dealing with these issues as a professional trying to help people. Trying to toss around different meanings of an old story is not equivalent to that process.

Is the way that is done interfering with developing helpful responses to existing problems?

Huh? Please explain.

Narcissism, as a diagnosis, is different from the classical references made to refer to a certain activity.

In the clinical sense, if it is not one condition, it is another. The importance of making a distinction is for the purpose of being closer to what is happening rather than further away. People have problems. How does one get closer to understanding them?

I’ve always thought that the modern psychological diagnostic concept of narcissism was not only unhelpful but dangerous. It belongs to a long line of moralistic personality attributions ( selfish, greedy, lazy, evil) that blames or pathologizes the other for our own failure to see the world from their vantage. To embrace the notion of narcissism is to ignore a host of approaches within psychology and philosophy that show why the separation between self and world that it presupposes is incoherent.

Narcissism, as a diagnosis, is different from the classical references made to refer to a certain activity.

In the clinical sense, if it is not one condition, it is another. The importance of making a distinction is for the purpose of being closer to what is happening rather than further away. People have problems. How does one get closer to understanding them? — Valentinus

Oh, I see. Of course. And I have separated the two. When referring to Trump - given he is an actual person - I was referring to the conventional diagnostic criteria - which is appropriate given what had been said. When I quoted Nussbaum, I was referring to the myth. Moby Dick is of course another instance of the Narcissist myth being taken in a particular direction by Melville.

I’ve always thought that the psychological concept of narcissism was not only unhelpful but dangerous. — Joshs

I have heard this kind of critique often. I agree that personality disorders are over diagnosed and loose and often unhelpful. Narcissism being just one flavor. But having worked with those afflicted with prodigious narcissism - to the point where others suffer greatly - I have to accept it contains truth of a sort. Granted, that there are endless psychological interpretations and slants available to us for any human behavior.

The only person comparable who enjoyed such a life, would be, to myself, Nero(?) — Shawn

I rather liken Nero to Agamemnon: vain, selfish and ruthless in his pursuit of power. Let us not forget that Nero had his own mother killed, upon viewing her a threat to his political position. Agrippina's famous last words, spoken to her assassin, at least according to the account of historian Cassius Dio: "smite me in the womb, whence came such an abominable son". Grisly stuff, that! Grisly man, Nero.

having worked with those afflicted with prodigious narcissism - to the point where others suffer greatly - I have to accept it contains truth of a sort — Tom Storm

Let’s take Trump as an example, since to many he seems to evince an excessive self-infatuation and self-obsession. You may perhaps agree that his ‘narcissism’ is not likely motivated by high self-esteem, but rather a profound insecurity and self-doubt. Every time he boasts ‘I can’ and I did’ he is countering a mocking voice in his head(his father’s ?) disdainfully intoning ‘you can’t’ and ‘you didn’t’. If what we think of as self-concept isn’t about a solipsistic island of meness but a center of integration of experience of the world , then the fragmented , insecure self that Trump obsesses about is less a walled off preserve than a a process trying desperately to integrate the world coherently in a self-consistent manner. Without this self-consistency , our experience unravels into chaos. Thus , Trump finds himself constantly on the precipice of internal incoherence.

Agree, flawed personalities are almost always incoherent and inconsistent in my experience.

Interesting insight, I think it is true that narcissism can be attractive, provided it comes in a reasonably attractive package. — Bitter Crank

Donnie was reasonably attractive when he was younger.

We do like to believe in people who believe in themselves.

Of course, and this preference is a potential vulnerability that others can exploit.
Hence: Nihil admirari!

Don't agree.

It's probably easier to think of some other people as "flawed" or "mentall ill", rather than to consider the possibility that humans are capable of this level of strategizing and play-acting, and more, that one is oneself capable of this level of strategizing and play-acting.

You seem to hold a rather naïve view of life. Which is probably why it seems everything always comes down to powerplays for you. Thoughts?

Having worked closely with people who live 'dysfunctional' and distressed lives - who suicide and overdose and slash themselves with broken glass and tend to be dead by 40 - I see little evidence of strategizing and play acting.