I would intubate the first one and put him on a vent, — frank

Which one is the first one?

Which one is the first one? — James Riley

I don't know. You can't really plan how you're going to kick chuck Norris's ass. You gotta be in the moment.

Yes
Vehemently against
Vehemently against

Using Covid-19 vaccine passports to tailor restrictions, however, has drawn staunch opposition based on several weighty concerns.1 First, while vaccine supply remains limited, privileging people who are fortunate enough to have gained early access is morally questionable. Second, even after supply constraints ease, rates of vaccination among racial minorities and low-income populations seem likely to remain disproportionately low; relatedly, if history is a guide, programs that confer social privilege on the basis of “fitness” can lead to invidious discrimination. Third, the extent of protection conferred by vaccination, particularly against new variants, is not yet well understood, nor is the potential for viral transmission by people who have been vaccinated. Fourth, privileging the vaccinated will penalize people with religious or philosophical objections to vaccination. Finally, we lack a consensus approach to accurately certifying vaccination.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2104289

If it was my loved one's life on the line who needed the bed, then I'd make the decision for the triager. That settles that. Some times a selfish, inconsiderate, disrespectful asshole makes it my lane. — James Riley

You as a citizen, a loved one or high ranking judge are NOT allowed to even enter the hospital lobby in Arizona at this exact moment in time.
One exception my friend: if you have a loved one who is in the end of life: last 15 minutes.

You can bully and bluster till the cows come home but you are wrong. :100:
Become a disrespectful asshole and you will be arrested.
The only way you are getting in to make any kind of a decision in this pandemic is to get educated with a degree, complete residency, work in the hospital for a long enough time to have your voice respected.

You gotta be in the moment. — frank

My respect for anyone who is having to be in the moment. :sparkle:

You can bully and bluster till the cows come home but you are wrong. :100: — ArguingWAristotleTiff

That's fine for you to think that. We want people like you to think that. It's good to have protocols. Until it's not. That's when shit gets real.

I don't know. — frank

Ah, but Benkei's scenario said you did know. You aren't willing to address hypotheticals as you play on your key board today?

That's fine for you to think that. We want people like you to think that. It's good to have protocols. Until it's not. That's when shit gets real. — James Riley

And you and your erroneous assumptions can kindly fuck off. I walked a medical crisis in the middle of this pandemic, I tried to get arrested for me to advocate for seeing my loved one, I had people willing and ready to post bail for me. It doesn't fucking work. No amount of tantrums or money will get you in. I TRIED!
Not being able to see your loved one for over a month is criminal. I could not agree more.
But, BUT, if you try to be an asshole, you will be treated as one.
You do NOT know of what you speak. Period.

Ah, but Benkei's scenario said you did know. You aren't willing to address hypotheticals as you play on your key board today? — James Riley

Is this all a game for you?

You do NOT know of what you speak. Period. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

I know I wouldn't "tried to get arrested". Nor would I throw a tantrum or use money. I'm a firm believer in technology. Oh, and I would have no problem not seeing my loved one if they were in the hospital being taken care of. I would thank my lucky stars they were in there. That's not what we are talking about here. So you can kindly fuck off yourself.

P.S. Hopefully your loved one was not in there for failure to vax, murdering other people who could have used the bed.

Is this all a game for you? — ArguingWAristotleTiff

It is now.

You know, on "The Philosophy Forum". If you can't entertain a hypothetical, then get back to work.

Vehemently against — NOS4A2

Quick follow-up, FMI.
Suppose a family had decided not to let unvaccinated (or untested / unmasked / not following protocols) into their home.
Would you be against that?
^{(I mean, not so much a matter of "it's their choice in their own home", but in terms of reasons for being "Vehemently against")}

not a proximate cause of an accident — Benkei

Neither is avoiding vaccination. Not having a vaccine is not the cause of covid. It's caused by contact with the SARS-cov-2 virus at sufficient load to overwhelm the immune system in a body with any one of a number of vulnerabilities. Getting vaccinated is just one of the ways a person can reduce the risk of that happening. You've not explained why you prioritize one particular method of reducing one particular risk.

still considered generally safe, — Benkei

Being a young, relatively healthy person, unvaccinated is considered relatively safe. Your chances of needing hospital treatment are well below one in two or three thousand.

do see good reason to prioritise help if someone culpably has put himself in a particularly dangerous situation. — Benkei

Right, but eating bacon every day for breakfast demonstrably does exactly that. As does riding a motorcycle.

Also, this is actually not true. People from lower socio-economic backgrounds are disproportionally sanctioned for breaking laws with less leniency applied. — Benkei

Someone's mental health, socio-economic or cultural background can be cited in a plea for leniency. I've provided assessments for exactly such purposes. I really hope I wasn't wasting my time.

Most laws that are passed disproportionally benefit rich people. — Benkei

Yes, but that's not a good thing is it? You're proposing one more.

If you willfully make decisions that contribute to you requiring care and those decisions are proximate causes to you requiring care, then all other things being equal, you are not the priority patient. — Benkei

Yes, but you've then got to decide extents. You've just assumed not getting vaccinated is top of the list of such decisions. It's not even close to top. Being obese is probably top, a sedentary lifestyle second, poor diet third. Beyond that there's dangerous activities such as sports. Failure to take prophylactic medicine wouldn't even be in the top ten. All are just as proximate, all just as demonstrably linked.

Quick follow-up, FMI.
Suppose a family had decided not to let unvaccinated (or untested / unmasked / not following protocols) into their home.
Would you be against that?
(I mean, not so much a matter of "it's their choice in their own home", but in terms of reasons for being "Vehemently against")

I'm not against that. I'm against governments forcing people to do that.

Yes, but you've then got to decide extents. — Isaac

That's easy. If the proximate cause is being an obstinate, petulant, Trump-supporting, Republican "rebel against the man" then you don't get treated. If you are fat, love fat food, and support a fat industry that sells fat food, then, while that is a proximate cause, it's not nearly as culpable. One is an inconsiderate, disrespectful, selfish asshole; the other not. And even worse than those two? That would be the poser throwing shade on the vax instead of on the fat. After all, if fat is worse, then you don't waste your time messing with the vax. You get out there and help people make healthy choices about what they eat. You attack the industry. But yeah, it's easier to use fat people as a shill to get your shade thrown on smarter people who are trying to help with a pandemic.

1. You don't have time to deal with any of this — frank

Right, when things are happening, there's no time to waste, including checking whether an incoming person is un/vaccinated.
That being said, @Benkei's point seems fair enough.
(Not that it matters, personally, I can see why, seems a fair consequence, though I haven't worked out if my conscience can run with that.)
The one vaccinated gets the one bed left, in priority over the other who deliberately chose not to be vaccinated (and may have to be isolated in a hallway, sent home, or whatever).
Regardless of whatever analogies, such considerations are still on the table.

Georgia cop who pushed people to take horse dewormer instead of vaccine dies from COVID-19 (Aug 27, 2021)

The one vaccinated gets the one bed left, in priority over the other who deliberately chose not to be vaccinated — jorndoe

I'll ask you the same question I put to Benkei then. Why vaccination? It's not even that high on the list of choices which proximally increase your risk of needing a hospital bed.

Ah, but Benkei's scenario said you did know. You aren't willing to address hypotheticals as you play on your key board today? — James Riley

That's not the right hypothetical. Instead focus on the healthcare worker 14 hours into trying to keep the situation under control and failing.

Frustration amped by exhaustion appears. Anger from being hungry, tired, needing to pee, etc. Do I hate white people because they're so fucking lucky? Let me deal with the black woman first.

Do I hate Jews because that one I know did that stupid thing? That guy looks Jewish, let me deal with this other guy first.

Am I really frustrated that this situation wouldn't be so bad if more people were vaccinated? Well, every covid positive patient here is probably unvaccinated, so let me just feed this anger a little more.

This is all irrational bullshit talking. Stop. Go pee. Go sit down and eat a doughnut. Write stupid stuff on your phone to people you don't know.

Now go back and deal with whatever.

I'll ask you the same question I put to Benkei then. Why vaccination? It's not even that high on the list of choices which proximally increase your risk of needing a hospital bed. — Isaac

Choosing not to vax makes you an jerk. Choosing to get fat makes you fat. I like fat people more than jerks. I should choose. Make me king.

I'm not against that. I'm against governments forcing people to do that. — NOS4A2

Scale it up.
The board of hospitals makes such a decision.
For/against then? (anti-government rhetoric aside)

I'm against denying people medical services.

That's not the right hypothetical. Instead focus on the healthcare worker 14 hours into trying to keep the situation under control and failing.

Frustration amped by exhaustion appears. Anger from being hungry, tired, needing to pee, etc. Do I hate white people because they're so fucking lucky? Let me deal with the black woman first.

Do I hate Jews because that one I know did that stupid thing? That guy looks Jewish, let me deal with this other guy first.

Am I really frustrated that this situation wouldn't be so bad if more people were vaccinated? Well, every covid positive patient here is probably unvaccinated, so let me just feed this anger a little more.

This is all irrational bullshit talking. Stop. Go pee. Go sit down and eat a doughnut. Write stupid stuff on your phone to people you don't know.

Now go back and deal with whatever. — frank

It may not be the right hypothetical, but it is the hypothetical you were presented with. Anyway, ask yourself about who (besides a virus) created the awful circumstances you just described? Was it all the people who got the vax? Did they create that mess, that untenable situation you are in? Hell, even a doc in a combat zone will treat his own guys first. Enemy comes later.

I would think every doctor in the land should know what his patients condition is, like Isaac's fat guy, or my anti-vax guy or whatever. Ask. Did you get the vax? If not, why not? Next . . .

And most of these situations did not arise with people coming in unconscious. They come in sick, complaining, articulating. They can lie, of course. Hence the card. And if you have enough beds, then, just like a combat zone, you treat them, even if they are an enemy. Hippocrates and all that. Great. Love it. But you prioritize those who did exactly what you, as a fucking doctor, told them to do: they got vaxed. Now you are going to turn them away because you're helping some Trumpster who told gubmn't and doctors and their fellow citizens to go fuck themselves?

This is all irrational bullshit talking. Stop. Go pee. Go sit down and eat a doughnut. Write stupid stuff on your phone to people you don't know. — frank

I'm reading you and am sending you energies. I wish I could do more.

But you prioritize those who did exactly what you, as a fucking doctor, told them to do: they got vaxed. Now you are going to turn them away because you're helping some Trumpster who told gubmn't and doctors and their fellow citizens to go fuck themselves? — James Riley

In not a doctor. I'm a respiratory therapist.

And no, hospitals don't prioritize based on vaccination history.

Don't make us paralyze and intubate you, man.

I'm reading you and am sending you energies. I wish I could do more. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

I'll take it. :blush:

I'll ask you the same question I put to Benkei then. Why vaccination? It's not even that high on the list of choices which proximally increase your risk of needing a hospital bed. — Isaac

Let's stipulate that there is a pandemic of other, non-Covid proximate causes. A bunch of them. Okay? Now, here's the distinction: our system is and was set up to deal with ALL those other proximate causes, with X number of beds, resources, protocols, and whatnot. Now we have a new player in town, a new straw tossed on the camels back, in what is called a "pandemic." Look it up. Finally, add the fact that there is a simple and free way to stay out of the hospital and avoid stressing those resources that were not designed for this pandemic.

That is the direct, clear answer to your question "Why vaccination."

In not a doctor. I'm a respiratory therapist.

And no, hospitals don't prioritize based on vaccination history. — frank

That's the point of the argument: They should. I'm not hearing any arguments as to why they shouldn't. After all, it's not any more burdensome than asking what they had for breakfast that morning. Or if they had their X shot in the last ten years, or if grandma had uterine cancer too, etc.

our system is and was set up to deal with ALL those other proximate causes, with X number of beds, resources, protocols, and whatnot. — James Riley

No it isn't and wasn't.

https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html

there is a simple and free way to stay out of the hospital and avoid stressing those resources that were not designed for this pandemic. — James Riley

Yes there is. I've already done it. Remain at a healthy bmi, eat well, exercise regularly, avoid crowded places during pandemics, wear a mask, wash hands regularly... Are you going to ask all the inpatients about those actions too?

So no, no one has yet answered...

Why vaccination — James Riley

...because no one has given anything which distinguishes vaccination from other courses of action one could take to avoid needing a hospital bed in a time of crisis.

Ha!

I can't even read the whole title on my phone, but I don't have to to know exactly what that is.

I take back every bad thing I've ever said about you.

I'll just be over here, typing along to the strange rhythms in my head...

No it isn't and wasn't.

https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html — Isaac

You must be unfamiliar with the concept of baseline. Look it up. But let's play your game: assuming for the sake of argument the system was not set up for those pandemics, it makes my argument even stronger. We don't have universal single payor either. We should. So what? The baseline is what you have to work with and we've been working with it (or, to assume your argument), or trying to work within it for decades, if not more. To toss a NEW player on the field, a player than can easily be vaxed to keep you out of that system, is another straw that should bear it's own burdens, if people choose to not avail themselves of the option.

Yes there is. I've already done it. Remain at a healthy bmi, eat well, exercise regularly, avoid crowded places during pandemics, wear a mask, wash hands regularly... Are you going to ask all the inpatients about those actions too? — Isaac

No, I'm not going to ask them about those actions. You know why? First, because some of them are the essential workers that allow spoiled people like you and me to isolate in the first place. Second, because if they did not wear a mask or wash hands regularly and had vaxed, they wouldn't be there. DOH! The vax is the arbiter. Not all that other stuff. We are trying to keep people out of hospital beds; not shut down the economy that you and I rely on.

So no, no one has yet answered...

Why vaccination
— James Riley

...because no one has given anything which distinguishes vaccination from other courses of action one could take to avoid needing a hospital bed in a time of crisis. — Isaac

Yes, someone has answered the question. You just don't like the answer. I hope everyone else noticed how you just pivoted from other proximate causes to other courses of action. So now you are saying that had people just done what they were told in the first fucking place, like distance, mask, wash, then we wouldn't need the vax. Guess what? You are right! But you had your own counterparts out there throwing shade on distancing, masking and washing so we needed a vax. Now we need a vax and they pivot to blaming a lack of distance, mask, wash. WTF?

Here's the deal, Isaac: We live in a world where not everyone is going to live up to your standards of distancing, masking, washing, BMI, etc. And, as a non-thinking person, you might argue "Well, they SHOULD! Everyone should be like me! Everyone should listen to me, Isaac, internet poser and expert on epidemiology!" But that ain't the world, Isaac. Go get your fucking vax. You know better. You're just being a gadfly, a troll. But, to the extent anyone is listening to you, you are a bed taker, a killer.