• jorndoe
    3.5k
    I'm against denying people medical services.NOS4A2

    OK, but that wasn't quite the question, though.
    In this case there aren't enough of them - beds/resources (actually, some of this is non-hypothetical).
    Hence ...

    The board of hospitals makes such a decision.
    For/against then?
    jorndoe
  • NOS4A2
    8.7k


    I thought it was implied in my answer that I am against the board of hospitals making such a decision.

    If there isn't enough resources to provide healthcare then that represents a failure on the part of the hospital or healthcare system. Mandating vaccine passports because the hospital or healthcare system is failing to provide healthcare is a ridiculous, if not stupid policy, especially when unvaccinated ≠ infected.
  • jorndoe
    3.5k
    , I guess we're talking past each other.

    unvaccinated infected (majority, ↓ priority) vaccinated infected (minority, ↑ priority)
  • NOS4A2
    8.7k


    Do you believe hospitals should deny people healthcare because they are unvaccinated?
  • frank
    14.9k
    .
    Do you believe hospitals should deny people healthcare because they are unvaccinated?NOS4A2

    People who say yes to that will either put themselves on the wrong side of history or remain irrelevant. Hopefully the latter, huh?

    How's Canada doing?
  • jorndoe
    3.5k
    Do you believe hospitals should deny people healthcare because they are unvaccinated?NOS4A2

    Me personally? Well, no, but that's irrelevant, and still wasn't the question.

    The board of hospitals decides that ...

    The one vaccinated gets the one bed left, in priority over the other who deliberately chose not to be vaccinated (and may have to be isolated in a hallway, sent home, or whatever)jorndoe
    For/against then?jorndoe

    Not quite a trolley problem, see earlier comments.

    There are examples of hospitals running full, and this is a possibly extreme example given earlier:

  • James Riley
    2.9k
    Do you believe hospitals should deny people healthcare because they are unvaccinated?NOS4A2

    It depends.

    How many beds do I have and do I have room for a vaxxed person who might come in for some other reason, up to and including being too fat, having a heart attack, asthma, etc.

    Why did you not get a vax? If you did not get a vax because it was not FDA-approved, do you want me to try and save your life with other drugs that are not FDA-approved?

    Should I call Tucker Carlson or Isaac for their expert advice?

    My answer to the original question could very well be "yes." And it's too early to determine whether or not that answer would put me on the wrong side of history. It does, however, seem that I am irrelevant. For now. I sincerely hope it stays that way.
  • NOS4A2
    8.7k


    We’re in the midst of another wave. Where I live, “vaccine passports” have been mandated by the provincial government as an interim solution until the country transitions to a federally compliant proof of vaccine.



    Why would you discriminate against the unvaccinated and vaccinated, when only the infected pose a risk?
  • James Riley
    2.9k
    Why would you discriminate against the unvaccinated and vaccinated, when only the infected pose a risk?NOS4A2

    I would not discriminate against the vaccinated. As to the unvaccinated: beds.
  • NOS4A2
    8.7k


    Beds? It seems to me a moral person would procure more beds before denying people healthcare.
  • James Riley
    2.9k
    Beds? It seems to me a moral person would procure more beds before denying people healthcare.NOS4A2

    :100: :up: It seems to me a moral person would champion universal, single payor health care for 8 billion people and then calculate how much kit and how many health care workers would be required to respond to a pandemic that makes covid look like an inconvenient pimple. Then spin that up. But there are too many immoral people in the world that would object to that. They did not plan ahead for Covid, they trashed the contingency plans that were being worked on, and they throw shade on all the ideas of the moral people.
  • frank
    14.9k
    We’re in the midst of another wave. Where I live, “vaccine passports” have been mandated by the provincial government as an interim solution until the country transitions to a federally compliant proof of vaccine.NOS4A2

    Aren't you in western Canada? Pretty progressive aren't they? Glad your head hasn't exploded yet.
  • NOS4A2
    8.7k


    Italy was well known for its universal healthcare system, yet the pandemic proved its flimsiness, with its hospitals unable to provide the basics. Most countries with such systems had to lock down society just to keep them afloat.
  • baker
    5.6k
    The one vaccinated gets the one bed left, in priority over the other who deliberately chose not to be vaccinated (and may have to be isolated in a hallway, sent home, or whatever).jorndoe
    And no consideration is given as to why a person didn't get vaccinated.

    It's quite strange that there are no contraindications for covid vaccines. For most medications and medical treatments, there are contraindications, even for non-prescription ones, but somehow, covid vaccines are a stellar exemption, popularily deemed safer even than Aspirin.

    People with already compromised immune systems due to a genetic disease or cancer are put in the same category as perfectly healthy people. People with already compromised immune systems due to a genetic disease or cancer who are otherwise advised against many medications and medical treatments, on account that they would be too dangerous for their already compromised immune system, nevertheless are expected to get vaccinated.

    Medically, this is a dangerous practice, although ideologically, it certainly makes perfect sense.
  • James Riley
    2.9k
    Italy was well known for its universal healthcare system, yet the pandemic proved its flimsiness, with its hospitals unable to provide the basics. Most countries with such systems had to lock down society just to keep them afloat.NOS4A2

    I guess they didn't do the moral thing, as you suggested, and procure more beds.

    Hey, I have an idea that is moral: Let's make it a pay to play system. You know, if you have money, you get treated. The more money, the better the treatment. If you don't have enough, we just shuttle you out into the street.

    Of course, there is a down side. Who's going to do all the essential services for the remaining rich people? Will they have to pick their own fruit? Heaven forbid!
  • baker
    5.6k
    Italy was well known for its universal healthcare system, yet the pandemic proved its flimsiness, with its hospitals unable to provide the basics.NOS4A2
    Yes. In some of those countries, doctors and esp. medical nurses have been complaining for years that they are severely understaffed (and underpayed). Even in peace time, the medical system wasn't able to take care of all the people who need medical care in a timely manner. Waiting times are measured in 6-months periods, or even years. For example, you could be having a severe headache for weeks, and have to wait for 6 months to get an MRI (and that would be fast).

    So it's no surprise that people in those countries don't have much faith in the medical system.
  • James Riley
    2.9k
    Regarding faith in the medical system, you can't procure more beds even if you have the money, when those with the money are undermining your efforts to prepare:

    https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/

    There are many other reasons that Americans don't have much faith in the medical system. It's no wonder posers are throwing shade on the experts. They are doubly frustrated: 1. By an inadequate system; 2. By their own inability to understand science that is over their head.
  • NOS4A2
    8.7k


    A moral and compassionate act would be to provide healthcare to those who cannot afford it. Delegating such moral and compassionate acts to a government monopoly reeks to me of immorality and heartlessness, in my mind.
  • James Riley
    2.9k
    A moral and compassionate act would be to provide healthcare to those who cannot afford it. Delegating such moral and compassionate acts to a government monopoly reeks to me of immorality and heartlessness, in my mind.NOS4A2

    So you would delegate it to who? The private for profit health care industry? Who's going to pay? Who's going to provide?

    P.S. Such delegation is exactly why we have government. DOH! Who does the delegating? The people. To who? The private sector? A lot of good that does. We are back to the pay to play thing I mentioned above. Health care is four-square in the center of why human beings have government in the first place. Like national defense.
  • NOS4A2
    8.7k


    Why not yourself?
  • James Riley
    2.9k
    Why not yourself?NOS4A2

    Because I'm not a medical doctor.
  • ArguingWAristotleTiff
    5k
    Because I'm not a medical doctor.James Riley

    Exactly my point. :100:
    You know not of what you speak.
    Grab an education, some empathy to your fellow man and come on back when you gain some grace.
  • NOS4A2
    8.7k


    Henry Dunant wasn't a doctor and he started the Red Cross.
  • James Riley
    2.9k
    You know not of what you speak.ArguingWAristotleTiff

    I'm not speaking out of school. I'm not telling people they don't need to vax. Or that other comorbidities should be looked at first. I'm not pretending to be a doctor, an immunologist or Fauci. I do know of what I do speak: It's my opinion.

    Grab an education, some empathy to your fellow man and come on back when you gain some grace.ArguingWAristotleTiff

    I've got an education, I've got empathy for my fellow man (that's why I distance, mask, vax). I don't have grace because people like you talk shit without argument. Make a case and we can argue. Until then, all I see is trolling.
  • James Riley
    2.9k
    Henry Dunant wasn't a doctor and he started the Red Cross.NOS4A2

    Asking the individual to do a group task without a group is to ask him to work against his interests. I taught you that with the gallon of gas example. It's the same with health care. You say the moral thing would be to procure more beds. The moral thing would have been to doubled down on what Trump threw in the trash can. Why don't you go string your own power lines and build your own www so we can debate on TPF.
  • NOS4A2
    8.7k


    If one had to choose between denying people healthcare and procuring more beds, procuring more beds is the moral option. Absent that, give healthcare anyways, on the floor if necessary. That was my only point.

    You’ve taught me nothing but to enjoy the benefits of Trump’s Operation Warpspeed, or unscrupulous actors will deny people healthcare if they don’t.
  • James Riley
    2.9k
    If one had to choose between denying people healthcare and procuring more beds, procuring more beds is the moral option. Absent that, give healthcare anyways, on the floor if necessary. That was my only point.NOS4A2

    Good point. But you would just do "first come, first serve." At least you're consistent on that. It's not unlike the money deal.

    You’ve taught me nothingNOS4A2

    That's a self-own.

    to enjoy the benefits of Trump’s Operation Warpspeed, or unscrupulous actors will deny people healthcare if they don’t.NOS4A2

    But if that is your lesson, then I've succeeded. Go VAX!

    Slight digression to a previous post, you know, I hate to rain on the Red Cross or Henry Durant, but is it possible that he relieved the government of some of it's responsibility to look out for the general health and welfare? By doing so, did he free up government resources to do other things like, oh, I don't know, whatever? I know Switzerland is neutral, but the Red Cross takes a lot of burden off of waring nations.

    He also might have taken the heat off of some rich folks who otherwise might have been called upon to, I dont' know, pay taxes? So yeah, when an individual tries to step up, be consistent, follow his conscience, he sometimes makes things worse. I'm sure the 1% love it when individuals go around taking the heat off of them.
  • Manuel
    4k
    Been vaccinated and think people should have them in certain settings as mentioned in the poll. The vaccine passports are more complicated.

    Yeah, I know, why pretend to care about privacy now, right? Still, I have doubts that we should willingly give out our info to insurance companies or governments, there are good reasons to be warry of them on some occasions.

    The mandatory vaccines in certain areas shouldn't be much of a concern, unless you are one of the few people who have real problems with vaccines (allergies, health complications, etc.)
  • jorndoe
    3.5k
    And no consideration is given as to why a person didn't get vaccinatedbaker

    Maybe, maybe not? What do you think? It's usually easy enough to identify people that require special medical attention. (Maybe ridiculous conspiracy theories are special conditions.) Actually, I think trying to round up medical conditions is standard procedure; maybe @frank or someone knows.

    somehow, covid vaccines are a stellar exemptionbaker

    Keep up. Some known suspects include allergy, blood clotting, adverse reactions in some children. But, saying "hey, it works, which can't be right" doesn't work.

    I guess @NOS4A2 had nothing to say on the topic. :-/
  • James Riley
    2.9k
    Keep up. Some known suspects include allergy, blood clotting, adverse reactions in some children.jorndoe

    True. I think I just read about two men in their thirties dying shortly after getting a shot.

    Of course, science must be done to determine if it was the shot, and then, apparently, we get to subtract comorbidities that might have killed them. Because, you know, in that case the shot is absolved of all culpability. Like Covid is innocent if the person was overweight, had asthma or was weak.

    Sarcasm aside, I do know of two people who suffered (according to them) greatly after the shot. The first person was good with the first shot but the second shot rolled her socks for 18 hours and she thought she was going to die. The other person got the first shot, felt bad and decided to not get the second shot.

    My family got the J&J, one and done. I woke up that night with the chills in a hot room and felt that way for about 15 minutes and it went away. Sore arm, but same as the flue shot. The wife had more of a go of it, and so did my son. But it was all first day and not horrible.

    Anyway, there are issues with the shots. I don't see any reason not to take them though. We were warned about the side affects that we experienced and decided to help out anyway.
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