How does one overcome the fear of getting a needle stabbed into one's flesh, to make this into a voluntary event? — Metaphysician Undercover
I made this thread to divert the mess into a controlled burn. — Cheshire
Again, if I were to take a deep dive on my questions, I could do so. I have several thoughts about what could go wrong, or what the motivation was behind pushing the vax, but I'm not going to give a loaded gun to a toddler. — James Riley
Which is a more compelling case the threat of harm or the questionable motivations? — Cheshire
I could let the fear mongers spin me up, or get schooled. I pick the third: which is neither. — James Riley
Essentially, changing the rules to a game you are already winning. — Cheshire
I've met more than a few people that take it for granted that population reduction is something that the super wealthy desire. It has a pleasant intuitive fit like too many people in the boat. Less people, better boat viability. But, to me the amount of disruption caused would be more of a threat than the population itself. They already have access to resources as if people weren't around through their wealth. Their wealth is only significant if it's in demand, so getting rid of people would devalue their assets. Essentially, changing the rules to a game you are already winning. — Cheshire
I actually do not understand this question. Can you whittle it down some? — tim wood
It comes off as contrarian if you've never experienced any hesitation. But, yes it's also strange for a group to select 'not immunized' as a part of their identity. It's funny because it unites the right more with what you find on the far left.But having voted for Trump seems to guide the amount of risk aversion they feel about this vaccine. They may wear masks compulsively, avoid crowded rooms, commercial venues, etc., keep their distance, and so forth -- but the vaccine is NO GO. — Bitter Crank
No sir! Wouldn't want anyone at all to feel threatened by an idea, especially when the idea might save them, their families and loved ones, and communities from the virus that is actually threatening them and that in some cases will kill them, and in ways they will not enjoy.without anyone being threatened by ideas. — Cheshire
No sir! Wouldn't want anyone at all to feel threatened by an idea, especially when the idea might save them, their families and loved ones, and communities from the virus that is actually threatening them and that in some cases will kill them, and in ways they will not enjoy. — tim wood
Any actionable idea would be outside the scope of the OP....which don't pertain to altering public policy or threaten advocacy for the general participation of the public? — Cheshire
Some people are scared by technical terms. — Bitter Crank
I agree, but I don't assume I'll ever achieve any actual level of opposition. I might maintain the price floor but producers will always sell to the highest bidder. If goods were suddenly priced on a proportional system relative wealth and they found themselves bidding directly against us then maybe they would have a reason.They eat Earth, along with the rest of us. — James Riley
↪Bitter Crank ↪Cheshire Over ten percent of the US population have had Covid, About 630,000 deaths in the US and counting. Just under 4.5 million deaths and counting worldwide, and worldwide totals are likely underreported. This in about 18 months.
People opposed to masks and vaccines are simply crazy people, their craziness dangerous, as is often the case with crazy people. — tim wood
It seems rude to pretend to that level of suffering for the sake of argument. I could literally be talking to myself right now in regards to where I stand and how much consideration of an oppositional vaccine position is worth discussing. But, we don't have the authority to tell people what they can not doubt while knowing the truth of the matter. Otherwise the conversation begins with a power imbalance based on imposing a lie. I can doubt anything man can produce and that's common ground.↪Cheshire Pretend you're a parent of a small school-aged child in Florida or Texas. You have to send your child to school. The governors of those two states are doing their best to ban mask mandates in schools. Your child goes to school, gets sick and dies, because of the governor's ban. Your child dead. What do you do? — tim wood
Why? It's already happened in Alabama if I recall correctly. No doubt children in unmasked schools are getting sick. If some have not already died, they will soon.It seems rude to pretend to that level of suffering for the sake of argument. — Cheshire
No? Why not? Are not people told, for example, to evacuate their homes on the chance of fire or flood or storm?But, we don't have the authority to tell people what they can not doubt while knowing the truth of the matter. — Cheshire
Yes, several. But, primarily the theme of being off putting and condescending(though warrented) doesn't seem to be improving the situation. What part of, I'm just as frustrated but looking for solutions is not computing.Any argument against? — tim wood
Because that is an extreme level of suffering and pretending to it disrespects those who endure it. And the people I hope to sway are loaded up with emotional arguments that keep them too unstable to identify logic from emotional ranting.Why? It's already happened in Alabama if I recall correctly. No doubt children in unmasked schools are getting sick. If some have not already died, they will soon. — tim wood
Because of Cogito, ergo sum. I prefer not to start from a position that denies the only known undoubtable truth.No? Why not? Are not people told, for example, to evacuate their homes on the chance of fire or flood or storm? — tim wood
Right, well unfortunately sensible people demand you present yourself with creditability. Which often involves a degree of indifference as to whether they believe you.This is not about thought control. It is about advising sensible people about what on the one hand they ought to do, and on another, what they must do. — tim wood
Right, it's obvious, so why does it need to be said forcefully? Will it make it more true or compelling or will it just confuse the beast with emotional signals?Vaccines and masks have a proven track record. There is no excuse whatsoever for not using them appropriately. for oneself, for one's family, for one's community. — tim wood
We are at the mercy of the free will of fools. Act accordingly.Any argument against? — tim wood
It's a vaccine for something that did mutate. Developing a natural immunity is a lean in strategy toward a pandemic. I have read the articles that claim getting covid is better protection from covid. Well, it's not if you have to get it first. But, I've seen the way it's been framed to look compelling. Like, the best protection against death is being dead; but lets explore some alternative options at least. Your right though; noodling with nature has led to unintended outcomes. I can imagine any number of things. It's whether being able to suppose it is reason enough to assume it is a "best fit" strategy.I feel it's a vaccine for something that's going to mutate, and that we should be developing a natural immunity to. I think it's creating a virus that will be larger than the one we have now. — theRiddler
Right, that's true. I mean a lot of people are dead; it's the nature of a virus that spreads quickly but doesn't burn itself out by killing all it's host. A more deadly virus would be devastating but arguably shorter lived. No doubt things could be much worse in a black plague collapse of society sort of way; but that's the point where "what should we do" starts showing up in the rear view. It is a valid observation regardless.Scary, though, I guess... People haven't been dropping left and right, though. There aren't wheelbarrows full of corpses on the street, exactly. — theRiddler
Yeah, people unloading their frustrations doesn't make for an interesting discussion. I don't want to be defending myself for having my own ideas. But, again the lean in strategy has a bit of a point of no return that still appears a little reckless when there are options on the table. It is the simplest and requires least amount of participation, so in that respect; it's the easiest to execute.And I just do feel like we're obeying the Karens on this one. You gotta deal with death in the world, you just do, it's a fact of life, sorry. They can't accept that, and the world's gonna end up suffering untold for it. For their false sense of security. — theRiddler
You're more likely to be a vector if you don't get vaccinated, so there's that. Don't ask for citation. You should have already read the findings on that. — frank
I don't believe that's the case. There's been less than a handful of studies on transmission, none, to my knowledge, have compared vaccination to other hygiene measures, only to non-vaccination with undifferentiated other actions. — Isaac
I hold a view of belief that is completely opposed to any 'one true answer' philosophy. — Isaac
See, that's just it. _I_ wouldn't tell you "I told you so".If some bad shit happens because I got the vax, then Baker, et al, can say "I told you so!" — James Riley
But here's the thing: You don't care. You don't listen. You think in black and white terms, all or nothing. No nuance, no detail, nothing. Like a total redneck. This is what puts many people off.But here's the thing: they didn't tell me anything, because they don't know anything. All they did was speculate. They aren't smart enough and don't have the training to tell me anything. All they can do is question, wonder, speculate or regurgitate what others have said to make them scared. There is nothing wrong with that, I guess. But I don't live my life that way.
It's more of a context for discussion. I'm trying to create a more of a space than a target. I think some people had/have doubts. Telling a person what they can not doubt is wrong in a way. So long as everything is prefaced with...this is about doubting certainty not informing public policy; then maybe people can raise their concerns without anyone being threatened by ideas. — Cheshire
We are at the mercy of the free will of fools. Act accordingly. — Cheshire
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