Propaganda — Moliere

You haven't justified the claim it is propaganda. There are lots of trans people reporting how reassignment surgery damaged their health. I mentioned the case of Jazz Jennings earlier.

She was put on puberty blockers that meant her penis was not big enough to turn into a neo/pseudo vagina. Puberty blockers make gender reassignment surgery even more harmful.

I can cite numerous cases of botched surgery and detransition but people will still claim "It's only a tiny minority"

In comparison affirming someone as gay requires no surgery, no lifelong medication, no stunted puberty, no infringement on women's rights, no possibility of turning someone else gay.
Interestingly Scott Newgent is still living as a man. That may be because a lot of reassignment procedures are irreversible and reconstruction surgeries would cost another pile of cash.

There is good evidence of the fetishistic element of transgenderism on Reddit.

R/Trans has 181k members

R/Transporn has 284k members. It consists of images of Trans women who like the majority still have their penis intact.

R/TransGone Wild is similar with 78k members

Likewise R/Traps which has 553k members.

Why has Gender dysphoria not led to penis removal/inversion & castration ?

You do realise not every member of a reddit has to be trans right, despite its name? Just how you're not a philosopher but you're still here?

I have a degree in psychology and philosophy.

How did that happen?

I can't tell on both counts.

I can't tell on both counts. — Benkei

I'm not surprised.

However is this the best you can do to resort ad hominem after the tonnes of evidence I have provided on this thread?

You haven't provided evidence. You've asserted that certain people suffer from a delusion without the evidence necessary to make such a claim. That makes you unqualified as a psychologist. That you don't understand why psychologists ought to refrain from diagnosing mental illness without actually doing either the research or having treated people, is worrisome.

You also don't know what an ad hom is. Read the ad hominem, schlominem thread. Zero points.

That makes you unqualified as a psychologist — Benkei

I am not a psychologist and I didn't diagnose anyone as delusional. Anyhow anyone who thinks a man can become a woman and vice versa is delusional from a non psychiatric perspective but from a perspective of understanding the restraints of reality.

You are symptomatic of all my opponents here who clearly haven't read anything I have posted.

I said that I know 4 trans people and someone who refused to read most of my posts asked me if I knew any trans people.

Just get an eye test and read and respond to my actual posts or continue to be a burden on humanity.

Oh right, so when you use the word "delusional" it doesn't have a psychological meaning even when you're trying to prove it by referring to psychological research. That makes no sense whatsoever, especially when admitting the etyology of gender dysphoria isn't established (but with strong indications its accompanied by physical changes in the brain).

So when people are diagnosed with gender dysphoria you nevertheless maintain both the psychologist and the patient have a false belief based on what? False information? No proof offered so far. The status of research at this point is the best information we have to go on. Dogma? No proof of that either and the fact it exists across time and across cultures definitely suggests otherwise. Illusion? About what exactly?

I said that I know 4 trans people and someone who refused to read most of my posts asked me if I knew any trans people.

Just get an eye test and read and respond to my actual posts or continue to be a burden on humanity. — Andrew4Handel

I don't give a shit about anecdotal evidence. I've had several trans colleagues over the years. They're perfectly happy with their choices. Maybe the fact you're surrounded by people with issues have to do with a) your personal interests or b) the type of person you are yourself and the people you therefore attract or c) a combination of both. Not interesting that you know them and not interesting why either.

Oh right, so when you use the word "delusional" it doesn't have a psychological meaning — Benkei

I never claimed it was an academic term.

It is a fact that men cannot become women and vice versa. Why do you believe otherwise?

How does surgery and hormones turn a man into a woman. Can that woman have periods, give birth, have uterus, menopause etc.

That is what I mean by delusional.

Most of my evidence has not been anecdotal. Trans "women" exhibit male patterned criminal behaviour. Trans "Men" are not assaulting people and winning athletic trophies from men and trying to enter male prisons and sexually assaulting men.

I pointed out that studies (very few) claiming reassignment surgery produces benefits have mainly been retracted. That is not anecdotal that is a fact I provided evidence for.

So when people are diagnosed with gender dysphoria you nevertheless maintain both the psychologist and the patient have a false belief based on what? — Benkei

Gender dysphoria does not mean that you were born in the wrong body. Just like a diagnosis of anorexia does not mean you are fat.

Try impregnating a trans woman and see how far that gets.

I am not questioning the existence of people dissatisfied with their sex. I am dissatisfied with humanity as everyone should be but that does not entail spending thousands of pounds/dollars/euros on bogus reassignment surgeries that shorten your life span.

You're equating sex with gender and that results in a lot of confusion for you apparently.

Trans "women" exhibit male patterned criminal behaviour. — Andrew4Handel

This again. As I already pointed out:

I also note that the Swedish study you referenced showed female likelihood of sexual violence if proper psychological care was provided to trans women. So the converse argument is possible too, that given the fact certain groups of trans women have female levels of violence those are really women then. Or maybe it's just not a very good indicator. — me

Why would it be delusional if I thought I was a cat but not if I thought I was a woman?

It is ridiculous that people think that you can be a man trapped in a woman's body and vice versa with no coherent explanation (unless you think 21 dysphoric women and brain imaging in mental rotation test decides gender over having a womb or penis)

Apparently chopping your penis and testicles or breasts off triumphs over sexual dimorphism.

The only science involved in this is the science of plastic surgery. Not the science of biology, reproduction or psychology. It is not psychologist creating pseudo vaginas.

I also note that the Swedish study you referenced showed female likelihood of sexual violence if proper psychological care was provided to trans women — me

If you gave every man oestrogen I am sure it would reduce crime rates.

Chop a mans arms off it will reduce crime rates.

Most trans criminals identify as such after the crime which is rather late.

"Beate Schmidt (born Wolfgang Schmidt October 5, 1966) is a German serial killer. From October 1989 to April 1991, Schmidt murdered five women and an infant. Schmidt is a trans woman."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beate_Schmidt

So the reason Beate killed six people is because she wasn't offered puberty blockers and gender reassignment.

"In 2010, Schmidt was investigated for raping and causing another transgender inmate to attempt suicide"

Why would it be delusional if I thought I was a cat but not if I thought I was a woman? — Andrew4Handel

This again comes down to you not understanding the difference between sex and gender. There's examples abound in nature of animals mimicking other animals. Ducks acting like cats, wanting to be treated like cats. Cats barking like dogs. etc. It's not about physical appearance.

Gender dysphoria is not about people thinking they are women or men while having the opposed sex; it's about identifying with the opposite gender than their sex. And this can cause all sorts of mental problems. It would indeed be delusional to think your sex is male when in fact you have a vagina and breasts but that's not what's going on here.

Arguing against trans-ism today is like arguing against gay rights in the 1970s or against BLM last summer. Trans proponents grant across-the-board consistency and validity to those who claim they can transition from one sex to another sex, man to woman, woman to man. Trans-dissenters are automatically classed as bigots, transphobic, stupid, etc.

I too have known a few transsexuals, going back to the 1970s--maybe... a dozen altogether. They were extremely varied, ranging from a secular Jewish woman who wanted to be an orthodox man to an alcoholic vet who decided in middle age to become a woman. They were all rational people, no more deluded in their thinking than the average successful citizens--meaning, there was room for at least substantial delusion.

Note to @Benkei regarding "delusion": The majority of American workers believe that with hard work and a bright idea they will become rich. They are deluded in this belief. Donald Trump, and 40,000,000 American conservatives think that the 2020 election was "stolen". This is a delusion.

Americans believe--and say quite often to children--that "you can be anything you want to be. You could be president of the United States." The odds are absurdly small of any child becoming president; the odds are against people trying to be whatever they want to be--ESPECIALLY if they are starting out with no money, a mediocre education, no models, no connections, no nothing. They are deluded.

So it is that parents bring forward 3 and 4 year olds who have decided they want to be girls instating of the boys they are, or visa versa, and demanding treatment. Delusion.

There is room in mass society for people to dress, act, work, and live as if they were the opposite of their biological sex. It seems to make this very small minority of people happier once they figure out how to pull off this act (it doesn't come naturally -- one has to learn it). I do not object to these people finding happiness by changing their costumes.

What I do object to is argument that persons can change their sex. They cannot. No matter how any hormones and surgical procedures are employed, one remains XX or XY -- like it or not.

I'm homosexual. I knew I was different, that I found boys much more interesting than girls from an early age on, though I did not have the vocabulary to say so. Of course, I had no idea in the late 1940s or early 1950s what was involved in having a homosexual life style, or that other people like myself even existed. I would guess that many transsexuals experience something similar at an early age.

Had my parents identified me as homosexual and then facilitated my development as a homosexual from kindergarten onwards, I think I'd have thought myself pretty poorly raised. As poorly raised if they had dragged me to a child psychiatrist to cure me of homosexuality before first grade. Young children have too much plasticity for parents to become too involved in their sexual identity, A mother encouraging her very young son in wearing girls clothes to school is behaving in ways that borders on indecency. Young children need to work through these issues over time, slowly, on their own.

Thanks.

One of the cases I linked to is Penny Cunningham

Age 11 "I'm trans"
Age 13 Puberty Blockers
Age 14 Testosterone
Age 15 Double Mastectomy
Age16 Crowd funding for breast reconstruction.

just another anecdote...

So it is that parents bring forward 3 and 4 year olds who have decided they want to be girls instating of the boys they are, or visa versa, and demanding treatment. Delusion. — Bitter Crank

The delusion is in trying to establish that at that age. It's too early to tell, doesn't mean the parents are wrong in recognising what their children want to be. My son is 3 and he's very boyish in a lot of respects but sometimes he makes me wonder when he gets angry when we applaud him with "well done, big boy!" and he yells "NO, BIG GIRL!". He probably just wants to be like his big sister for now. But I don't "identify" my kids, that's not my role. I do need to create a safe space where they can freely identify as they wish when they are ready. I don't care whether that's transgender, straight or gay/lesbian. So I purposefully don't (and won't) argue his insistence of being a girl because of it.

What I do object to is argument that persons can change their sex. They cannot. No matter how any hormones and surgical procedures are employed, one remains XX or XY -- like it or not. — Bitter Crank

I agree. Nevertheless, gender affirming plastic surgery, which colloquially is know as a "sex change operation", is an option for people to further fulfil and support their transition to another gender. As I've stated before, transsexuality is not a requirement for transgenderism, it's optional.

In fact, I just remembered (it was over 20 years ago) I had a roommate for half a year that was an exchange student who was transgender. He was sexually a woman and had no inclination to change his sex and I think I'd describe his gender expression as unisex (what you see on the outside). He had a boyfriend. A lot of people make a big deal out of it and people who are transgender have a hard time admitting to their feelings and ideas as a result. I've always been "meh". I really dont care. You want me to call you a "she"? Fine. Or "xe"? No problem. It's a small effort to make someone comfortable and that holds true irrespective of the etyology of gender dysphoria.

What people do to their bodies when they grow up? None of my business and that's irrespective of the etyology of gender dysphoria. Or we need to start rethinking women's right to breast reductions and enlargements, or people's rights to liposuction, lengthening operations for hypochondriaplasia or anochondroplasia etc.

You're equating sex with gender and that results in a lot of confusion for you apparently. — Benkei

Gender is a grammatical term. English does not apply gender this way. Sex is a biological reality.

Calling a ship "she" is not a biological claim.

Throughout my entire childhood no one mentioned the term gender apart from possibly when I studied German and French at school.

Now the Gender fairy is everywhere blessing us with new identities. Just make one up and accuse someone of a hate crime for not affirming you.

Gender isn't just a grammatical term and the difference between biological and psychological sexuality has been around for over 60 years. It was first a term of art in psychology, it has made it's way into mainstream vocabulary.

This happens all the time. Take the word "relativity" which has taken on quite a different meaning since Einstein and it took almost 50 years before it became a word laymen would use.

Your personal anecdote that you've been living under a rock and wasn't aware of this meaning until apparently very recently (and apparently didn't pay attention during psychology classes when this definitely came up) is not proof of what gender means.

Transgenderism has historically existed before modern times as well. Just because we didn't have a term before it at that time, doesn't mean it didn't exist. If you studied French, you know what it means when something can be defined a certain way avant la lettre. Which is how I can accurately state my great-grandmother was a feminist.

Trans "women" exhibit male patterned criminal behaviour. — Andrew4Handel

Trans men exhibit male patterned criminal behaviour. But what's your point?

Transgenderism has historically existed before modern times as well. — Benkei

e.g. in Native American culture.

[In Ojibwe cultures] Sex usually determined one's gender, and therefore one's work, but the Ojibwe accepted variation. Men who chose to function as women were called ikwekaazo, meaning 'one who endeavors to be like a woman'. Women who functioned as men were called ininiikaazo, meaning, 'one who endeavors to be like a man'. The French called these people berdaches. Ikwekaazo and ininiikaazo could take spouses of their own sex. Their mates were not considered ikwekaazo or ininiikaazo, however, because their function in society was still in keeping with their sex. If widowed, the spouse of an ikwekaazo or ininiikaazo could remarry someone of the opposite sex or another ikwekaazo or ininiikaazo. The ikwekaazowag worked and dressed like women. The ininiikaazowag worked and dressed like men. Both were considered to be strong spiritually, and they were always honoured, especially during ceremonies.

Or other cultures with a third gender

Gender may be recognized and organized differently in different cultures. In some non-Western cultures, gender may not be seen as binary, or people may be seen as being able to cross freely between male and female, or to exist in a state that is in-between, or neither. In some cultures being third gender may be associated with the gift of being able to mediate between the world of the spirits and world of humans. For cultures with these spiritual beliefs, it is generally seen as a positive thing, though some third gender people have also been accused of witchcraft and persecuted. In most western cultures, people who do not conform to heteronormative ideals are often seen as sick, disordered, or insufficiently formed.

The Indigenous māhū of Hawaii are seen as embodying an intermediate state between man and woman, or as people "of indeterminate gender", while some traditional Dineh of the Southwestern US recognize a spectrum of four genders: feminine woman, masculine woman, feminine man, masculine man. The term "third gender" has also been used to describe the hijras of South Asia who have gained legal identity, the fa'afafine of Polynesia, and the Albanian sworn virgins.

In some Indigenous communities in Africa, a woman can be recognized as a “female husband” who enjoys all of the privileges of men and is recognized as such, but whose femaleness, while not openly acknowledged, is not forgotten either.

The hijras of India are one of the most recognized groups of third gender people. Some western commentators (Hines and Sanger) have theorized that this could be a result of the Hindu belief in reincarnation, in which gender, sex, and even species can change from lifetime to lifetime, perhaps allowing for a more fluid interpretation. There are other cultures in which the third gender is seen as an intermediate state of being rather than as a movement from one conventional sex to the other.

Cool. And here I was still thinking about European examples and this is just further circumstantial proof that transgenderism is not only sociological or political. Of course, social and political situation have a lot of effect on if and how it can be expressed and I think that's why we're seeing such an "increase" today. Transgenders are starting to feel safe to admit to their feelings and thoughts and express them. This can only be a good thing.

What I do object to is argument that persons can change their sex. They cannot. No matter how any hormones and surgical procedures are employed, one remains XX or XY -- like it or not. — Bitter Crank

If the argument remains in the abstract, as just a debate over word usage, then it seems an unimportant diversion. We can all agree that there is a difference between XX and XY and then we can disagree and debate whether sometimes XX can be called "man' and whether XY be called "woman." The answer to that debate comes down to word usage and social constructs, that I'm sure might make an important difference to someone in a gender studies class or maybe in a philosophy forum, but probably in few other places. I really doubt that most trans people are heavily invested in the outcome of that tangential debate. From what I read, you'd think the battleground is over pronoun use, but I just can't see that's really where the trans person faces their daily struggle.

The question it seems to me is whether transgenderism is real, meaning are there actually people who identify more as their opposite sex, and, if so, what we ought do about it. If surgeries and clothing are cathartic, curative, or even mildly therapeutic, they should be available to those who choose them, with very limited input from me. Or, more simply, if a man wants to live as a woman, and that makes him happy, why the hell am I going to weigh in?

I think you can take one of three approaches here: (1) pragmatic, (2) metaphysical, or (3) ethical. Mine above is the pragmatic response, and I think that's how most medical decisions are made, where there is informed consent and a final decision made by the patient. I don't see why transition surgery should be different.

Your argument smacks of metaphysics, suggesting that it's folly to call a transitioned man a woman because he still is in essence a man because his DNA hasn't been altered. Those who bristle at such claims point out that meaning is use and considerations of essence usually break down as unsustainable. All of this is to say, unless I'm focused on the metaphysics of this, I don't care what the DNA shows.

And then finally there is the ethical, and both sides of the spectrum are guilty of this, where the left claims civil rights violations for standing in the way of trans rights and the right claims the whole thing is an unholy enterprise. And what makes the ethical folks the most difficult is their often failure to admit their approach is ethically motivated. The left insists they are basing their claims on science, yet those claims as to what science says are often inflated. The right also claims their claims are based upon science, yet with a little prodding, there is often more than a hint of confirmation bias, searching for those studies that offer support for the status quo because the time honored tradition just must be right, it just must be.

The left insists they are basing their claims on science — Hanover

... And decency. And history. Historically we have rejected men dictating womanhood to women, white women dictating womanhood to non-white women, middle class women dictating womanhood to working class women... It's not rocket science to need a better reason to dictate womanhood to trans women than the above had to assert their definitions.

And decency. And history. Historically we have rejected men dictating womanhood to women, white women dictating womanhood to non-white women, middle class women dictating womanhood to working class women... It's not rocket science to need a better reason to dictate womanhood to trans women than the above had to assert their definitions. — Kenosha Kid

This is certainly the moralistic approach, which can blind someone from appreciating critical distinctions between past struggles, and it can cause someone to overlook the limitations available through medical science. That is, I think any fair minded person would agree with you that ostracism, bullying, and moralizing against transsexuals is an evil to be avoided, but it does not follow that the medical response helps reduce the suffering of those who are suffering. You can be pro-transsexual in every way possible and still be against transition surgeries.

You can be pro-transsexual in every way possible and still be against transition surgeries. — Hanover

Meta-analysis suggests general hesitation about gender-reassignment is misinformed - there's evidence it's on average effective for those who elect to take it.

There's also comprehensive screening for reassignment/gender affirmative surgery - it includes mental health screening. It aims to assess if the person would benefit from the surgery and could cope with it! It's very hard to get the surgery without having sufficient evidence that it's worth the risk. Similarly for hormone therapy.

The risk assessment and screening for these is comparatively higher than the reversible and non-intrusive puberty blockers which can be given to consenting transgender or gender non-conforming youths without many expected side effects AFAIK.

To be sure, someone can be blanket against gender reassignment surgery and pro-trains rights, but I believe only if they don't know how comprehensive the screening is for receiving gender reassignment or puberty blocking treatment. People act like the T Stasi (T-minators?) are going around cutting off children's dicks and sticking them on other children, it's absolutely nothing like that.