If you're arguing that, say, trans women shouldn't be in the women's division in elite sport because "trans women aren't real women", that's transphobia. — fdrake

This is the problem with the politically charged trans movement. Science should be the reliable authority, but it's taken a back seat. Richard Dawkins has been cancelled, and he didn't even say anything trans phobic. He merely stated that we should discuss the relevance of biology when considering what makes a real woman. Now he's been stripped of his humanist award from over 20 years ago. The scientists are silenced, if they disagree with the trans truths.

Now, Caitlyn is being cancelled. I'd wager, that both Dawkins and Caitlyn are immune to cancel culture at this point. But 99 percent of other scientists are not immune. Their reputation and lively hood relies on them playing along.

This is why I wonder, who has authority on the subject. Because it seems that, Biologists and trans woman have none.

Can trans activists think of a higher authority. Or is their agenda fuelled solely on feelings. — Edy

Everyone's opinions are influenced by feelings, and everything that affects real people is political. I'm not a fan of casting your own view as a-political and thoroughly rational. At best it demonstrates a lack of self-awareness.

This is a general statement, that's not aimed at you personally.

When the question is, should we allow biological men to compete against woman, I would have thought that the best person to ask is a trans who played sports at an elite level. It seems this isn't the case..

Do you consider Caitlyn to be an authority on this question. Why/not? — Edy

If the issue is just about whether or not there is an athletic advantage then an authority would be any scientist who has conducted a peer-review study or has an academic qualification on the subject matter.

If a trans male actually cares about women then they should stay out of the women’s leagues. To do otherwise is an affront.
If you think biological males do not have a tremendous physical advantage that compromises a women’s sport and any integrity or honour of the women in that sport then I’m sorry to tell you that you’ve lost your fucking mind. Time to reevaluate. — DingoJones

A trans man is a person who was assigned female at birth and later identifies as/transitions to being a man. Did you mean to be referring to trans women (those who are assigned male at birth and later identify as/transition to being a woman)?

But on the topic of trans men, should they compete in women's or men's sports?

I understand they are trying to make policy but a year of hormone therapy doesn’t even the playing field by a long shot. — DingoJones

This is true. According to this study it takes at least two years of hormone therapy for transgender women to match cisgender women in push ups and sit ups, although they still have an advantage in the 1.5 mile run.

What makes sense to me would be a trans league, or an open league of some kind. — DingoJones

Using the study above you'll see that trans men have a significant advantage over trans women. So should there be both a transgender men's league and a transgender women's league? Perhaps also an intersex league for those with ambiguous genitalia/other sex chromosome disorders?

All you have to do is look at how badly women’s world records are being shattered every time a trans male competes in women’s leagues of any and all sports. — DingoJones

Do you have examples? I've found two: Mary Gregory in powerlifting (after just a year of hormone therapy) and Veronica Ivy in track cycling.

Science should be the reliable authority, but it's taken a back seat. — Edy

Should it? Or rather, should it be the only authority? I think there might be more to the matter than just athletic ability. If trans women are forced to compete in men's sport and trans men are forced to compete in women's sport then is that not a denial of their gender identity? There's an ethical matter beyond that of just athletic fairness.

It might be unfair for cisgender women to compete against transgender women, but isn't it also unfair for transgender women to be treated as men?

Do you have examples?[of woman's records being shattered by trans] I've found two: Mary Gregory in powerlifting (after just a year of hormone therapy) and Veronica Ivy in track cycling. — Michael

A woman's skull was shattered. A trans named Falcon Fox entered MMA as a woman, without telling the organisation about being born a male. They were in the same weight class, but it still looks like Jake The Muss smashing his girlfriend. It's not pretty. As a fan of combat sports, I like a good bloody war, like Robbie Lawler vs Rory Mcdonald. But the trans Falcon Fox vs cis female was the most disturbing fight I've ever seen. Fractured orbitals are quite common but men don't usually break other mens skulls. Nor do woman break other woman's skulls.

New Zealand weight lifting champion Laural Hubbard has won multiple events. Not sure if Laural has had surgery, though I'm told that doesn't matter. Then there's the rapper Zuby, who smashed the woman's deadlifting record, while he briefly identified as a woman. The truth is, not many organisations are willing to allow trans competing in woman's events. And for good reason. Just compare the top 100 male athletes in any organisation. They'd all beat the woman's record.

I'm not a fan of casting your own view as a-political and thoroughly rational. At best it demonstrates a lack of self-awareness — Echarmion

We used to be able to turn to factual scientific research. Apparently, science is still trying to figure out the trans equation. I have my reservations, until the science is clear. When it comes to sport however, I'm concerned for the safety of woman who compete against trans, as well as the fairness.

The politics are not my concern, I care not for the trouble with getting involved. I have an issue with woman missing out on championships, careers, scholarships and being role models. All these are compromised in any sport that allows trans to compete against cis. As a father of 4 daughters, this is rather an important topic. At least one of my girls has potential and interest in martial arts, and the idea that she'd be competing against someone who could break her skull, is absolutely disturbing.

All that aside, I agree, that basically the biology should be the criterion. — 3017amen

So trans men should compete in women's tournaments?

That's where the problem lies. Science is clear that in physical competitions especially at top level a biological female is not the same as a biological male. So the issue seems to be political. Politics decides how science is applied. — Apollodorus

It's less about politics and more about ethics. If we just consider trans women for the moment, there seem to be 4 possibilities:

1. Transgender women compete against cisgender women
2. Transgender women compete against cisgender men
3. Transgender women compete against each other
4. Transgender women can't compete

Which is fairest? If we consider this study then after two years of hormone therapy transgender women perform closer to cisgender women than cisgender men in push ups and sit ups. If fairness is determined by athletic ability then even though it might be unfair for cisgender women to compete against transgender women in strength-based sports, it's even less fair for transgender women to compete against cisgender men. Not allowing transgender women to compete at all also seems very unfair. So we have to decide between having transgender women competing against cisgender women or having transgender women only compete against each other. Are transgender women only tournaments even feasible?

Then there's the rapper Zuby, who smashed the woman's deadlifting record, while he briefly identified as a woman. — Edy

You're referring to this? Because I'm referring to actual transgender women, and in particular those who have undergone sufficient hormone therapy.

You're referring to this? Because I'm referring to actual transgender women, and in particular those who have undergone sufficient hormone therapy. — Michael

According to the trans movement, hormone therapy has nothing to do with it. They believe in gender fluidity. Someone can change their identity from day to day. And if you don't agree, then you are a bigot. That's what Zuby was referring too.

Either biology has relevance, or it does not. If you agree with the trans movement, then you agree with Zuby. Are you willing to argue that Zuby wasn't a real woman when he broke that record? That's dangerous territory.

But alas, this is the political discussion I was trying to avoid...

Are transgender women only tournaments even feasible? — Michael

Well, there are men or women only tournaments, so why not?

I think the root of the problem is that there are some men who want to be considered women.

However, it should be for society, not for those men/women to decide how society sees them. Otherwise, you have a small minority dictating to the vast majority what to think. Additionally, governments may select to side with those men/women and try to impose their views on the whole population, etc. So, I would say that politics does come into it.

According to the trans movement, hormone therapy has nothing to do with it. They believe in gender fluidity. Someone can change their identity from day to day. And if you don't agree, then you are a bigot. — Edy

Correct. There seems to be a growing number of minority groups that try to impose their views on the rest of society. And if you disagree for any reason you are instantly branded "bigot", "Fascist", "Nazi", "racist", "capitalist", "Christian", reactionary", "enemy", etc. and you are lucky to come out alive from any "discussion" or "debate". There is zero dialogue, just pure fanaticism and hatred.

Well, there are men or women only tournaments, so why not? — Apollodorus

Because there are far, far fewer transgender athletes than cisgender athletes. According to this "less than 1 percent of the NCAA’s student-athlete population is transgender."

Can you make a competitive rugby tournament with only transgender men? Can you make a competitive tennis tournament with only transgender women? Can you make a competitive 400m relay race for the Olympics with only transgender athletes? I don't think so. And is it fair to say that transgender athletes aren't allowed to compete at all? I don't think so. So either transgender women compete against cisgender women or they compete against cisgender men, and as I explained here, in some activities transgender women perform closer to cisgender women than to cisgender men, and so if athletic ability is the measure of fairness then for these activities it's fairer for cisgender women to compete against transgender women than for transgender women to compete against cisgender men. And it's fairer for transgender men to compete against cisgender men than for cisgender women to compete against transgender men.

And it's fairer for transgender men to compete against cisgender men than for cisgender women to compete against transgender men. — Michael

I don't think cis woman's broken skulls agree with your research.

Because there are far, far fewer transgender athletes than cisgender athletes. According to this "less than 1 percent of the NCAA’s student-athlete population is transgender." — Michael

But that seems to be the transgenderists' problem not society's.

For the sake of argument, suppose someone decides to be a horse and successfully undergoes surgery to become as horselike as possible. Which tournaments should we allow them to compete in?

For the sake of argument, suppose someone decides to be a horse and successfully undergoes surgery to become as horselike as possible. Which tournaments should we allow them to compete in? — Apollodorus

Horse racing. :roll:

Whereas according to you it should be determined by their birth biology and so women's 100m?

Horse racing. — Michael

Well, opponents might protest and say that their human brain puts the rest of the competing horses to an unfair disadvantage, etc.

What I'm saying is that society can't always accommodate those who deliberately choose to be different yet at the same time insist on being equal.

I don't think cis woman's broken skulls agree with your research. — Edy

Are you referring to Tamikka Brents' orbital fracture after fighting Fallon Fox? She's not the only woman to suffer an orbital fracture in MMA. See Miesha Tate vs Sara McMann.

And one example of a transgender woman beating a cisgender woman doesn't undermine a study that shows the strength difference between transgender women and cisgender women is smaller than the strength difference between transgender women and cisgender men. Have Fallon Fox fight Conor McGregor and the beatdown will be even more one-sided.

What I'm saying is that society can't always accommodate those who deliberately choose to be different yet at the same time insist on being equal. — Apollodorus

People don't choose to be transgender. They choose to transition, but not to be transgender.

People don't choose to be transgender. They choose to transition, but not to be transgender. — Michael

You could be right there. I don't know much about transgenderism to be honest, but I've read articles about normal people undergoing surgery or taking medication to transform them into the opposite sex because they were encouraged by their school teachers or activist groups to do so. In any case, I think it should be for society to decide not for minority or special interest groups to dictate to the rest of us. But that's just my opinion.

A trans man is a person who was assigned female at birth and later identifies as/transitions to being a man. Did you mean to be referring to trans women (those who are assigned male at birth and later identify as/transition to being a woman)? — Michael

Yes, thank you. I meant a trans woman.

But on the topic of trans men, should they compete in women's or men's sports? — Michael

Not sure, there are complications either way, that’s why I thought an open league of some kind might work.
I’ve heard some people suggest transitioning to no leagues and no restrictions on performance enhancements. A free for all. Not sure that works either.
To me the answers to this question are not nearly as obvious as the trans woman competing against biological women.

This is true. According to this study it takes at least two years of hormone therapy for transgender women to match cisgender women in push ups and sit ups, although they still have an advantage in the 1.5 mile run. — Michael

Right but we are talking competitive sports. General athletics as opposed to a very specific physical activity as you’ve referenced. For combat sport bone density and structure are important and hormone treatments only reduce those things so far. A biological woman might outdo a trans woman at push ups, sit ups and even the run but still be at an unfair advantage at specific sports.
But anyway, eventually the hormone treatments will be so good none of this would be an issue. The treatments will keep getting g better till the differences are no longer significant.

Using the study above you'll see that trans men have a significant advantage over trans women. So should there be both a transgender men's league and a transgender women's league? Perhaps also an intersex league for those with ambiguous genitalia/other sex chromosome disorders? — Michael

There is no link to the study. Maybe two leagues sure.
Genitalia and most chromosome disorders do not confer advantages or disadvantages of performance as far as I know, so none issue.

Do you have examples? I've found two: Mary Gregory in powerlifting (after just a year of hormone therapy) and Veronica Ivy in track cycling. — Michael

A few have been mentioned, but no I don’t have references on hand. I found them pretty easily when I searched though.
You can also compare records to get data on this as well. I’ve read articles (which in the news media of today is always to be taken with a grain of salt) that say high school boys do as good or better than biological women pro level athletes. That’s telling as well.

Have Fallon Fox fight Conor McGregor and the beatdown will be even more one-sided. — Michael

While the chromosome biology is under reconsideration, a part of biology that isn't controversial, is the fact that hormone therapy has little to no affect on bone density. I can state, without being a bigot, that males have a denser bone structure than females. If you've watched any of Fox's fights, it's clear, in the way that Fox walks through punches without caring.

I'm no fan of Conor. But he used to have the record for fastest KO. Fox would be out cold in less than 30 seconds. I enjoy watching Khabib maul Conor for 25 min as if he were a beginner. But I struggle watching Fox beat down woman, knowing Fox has an unfair advantage. There's a difference.

Id be all for a separate, open devision. Anyone can enter. But it would just be run by the current male champion, so what's the point.

So trans men should compete in women's tournaments? — Michael

I believe so. A trans man, being assigned female at birth (so-called biological birthright), who wants to compete with other women would have a better argument... .

I think that a lot of women would have a big problem if a transman wished to take part in a female tournament, but of course, it depends on whether the transman looked male or female. What this thread also ignores is that there is some overlap between transgender people and intersex. Each trans person has their own story. I think that it is a big mistake to focus on one celebrity, who really lived as a man for so many years, rather than look at the wider picture.

I believe so. A trans man, being assigned female at birth (so-called biological birthright), who wants to compete with other women would have a better argument... . — 3017amen

Trans men, after hormone therapy, are stronger and faster than trans women, after hormone therapy. If the concern with trans women competing against cis women is that cis women are at an athletic disadvantage then it would be an even greater concern for trans men to compete against cis women.

It certainly may be true in that some women may feel it's an unfair advantage. But my reasoning relates to biology. As such, if the trans man were say, blood tested for things like steroids, then in theory the women competition should not take exception if the test was negative.

Trans men, after hormone therapy, are stronger and faster than trans women, after hormone therapy. If the concern with transgender women competing against cisgender women is that cisgender women have an athletic disadvantage then it would be an even greater concern for transgender men to compete against cisgender women.
Michael — Michael

But do they have to continue with hormone therapy? If so, it should be a non-starter. And if that's the case, then the whole notion of competition in certain kinds of sports may be prohibited for biological reasons. Though not an exact analogy, let's say a publicly funded college precluded women from enrolment. And, say another publicly funded college precluded men from enrolment. I see equity and fairness in that scenario.

It begs other political and ethical (not moral) kinds of questions relative to whether say girl scouts should be for girls only, and boy scouts for boys only. Feel free to poke holes in my argument...this is an interesting topic...

I just think the reality is so much more complex than it is being portrayed in this thread. For example, if someone identifies as a transman they may or not be taking testosterone. However, they may even have elevated t levels in the first place due to underlying endocrine disorders. The situation of transmen is so less understood than of transwomen generally, but of course, even some transwomen have underlying forms of intersex.

But, I think that the danger of most of the debates on transgender on this forum is that they make such sweeping generalisations about trans issues. I keep seeing this flash up today, and someone even comparing a person who wishes to transition with someone wishing to become a horse. I don't think it was written with any particular transphobia but with a complete lack of any knowledge of the experiences of transwomen or transmen.

I just think the reality is so much more complex than it is being portrayed in this thread. — Jack Cummins

Indeed. I think that's yet another argument for precluding certain kinds of sports from this gender phenomenon. Perhaps the next question(s) could be what kinds of sports lend themselves to or are better suited for trans-humans?

Alternatively, I think Michael made some distinctions about trans men and trans men all competing together fairly... .

It's rather funny that I have even got into discussions on this thread because I don't like sports, playing or watching them, but I think that every trans person probably has to negotiate their place in sports and most aren't so good that they are competing in official tournaments. I don't know if there are any actual trans athletics as such and this probably varies across the world, but, of course, there are links between transgender and the gay community. However, there can be tensions here. In particular, there is a whole historical protest against transgender coming from radical lesbians.

Your point about segregation in children's groups, such as the girl guides and scouts is interesting but there is so much heated debate about children and transgender on this site and in the media in general. In England, it is fuelled by one particular individual, Kiera Bell, who transitioned from female to male as a teenager and regretted it, and is now transitioning back to being female.

But, even though trans issues weren't discussed so much until recently it is likely that many experienced them, even before physical treatment was available. I don't know if you ever read The Famous Five books, but I often wonder if George was a potential transgender person.

No I haven't, what's the jist of it?

The only thing I've experienced (besides getting hit-on by gay men) is dating women who've had either homosexual men or lesbian women offspring. The consistent story was that early on, they knew something was very different in/from each child's behavior. They gravitated away from typical gender based behaviors and interests, from say around year 2 onward. (The gay female liked cars; the gay male liked dolls... .)

Anyway, far from an expert in those areas...just sharing some experiences/stories... .

George was a girl in The Famous Five but used to dress as a boy and get really cross if treated as a girl. The books were written by Enid Blyton and I don't know much about her. They were written a long way back in the last century but they are still being read nowadays in England.

It's funny to hear that you get hit on by gay men too because I do too. I am bi, but I look really gay and sometimes get approached by strangers asking me to be a rent boy.

I think that transwomen often have the hardest time of most groups because they are often so visible. I know a transwomen, who was beaten up so badly in her early twenties that she will have to spend the rest of her life in a wheelchair. Even during my time working in healthcare I have come across so many staff members with really hostile attitudes. For example, there was a trainee doctor who was a transwomen and one care assistant remarked , 'If I had a relative in hospital I wouldn't want them touched by someone like that.' Fortunately, the manager told this person off, but many staff used to make all kinds of remarks. There was some transgender training, which was important because we had transgender patients.

Anyway, I had better stop myself from derailing the sports thread, but I have been so irritated by this thread, or more especially the protest thread against the moderators, which got closed last night.