Now that they're there, yes.

Palestine one race? Short term I suppose.

I don't think it is feasible in the long term. But now, short term planning is the only way to move forward.

What Israel is doing now is nothing short of monstrous — Manuel

Under 200 Palestinians including several members of Hamas have died after Hamas launched 1,500 rockets arbitrarily into Israel which has nearly 2 million Palestinians living there . One rocket killing an Israeli-Palestinian seven year old boy.

I think you need to revisit the definition of monstrous.

Palestine one race? Short term I suppose. — Manuel

Anyone should be allowed to live anywhere. That is the logical and philosophical only viable position. The attempt to eradicate Jews from the Middle east is the epitome of a Genocide.

2 million or so Arabs live within Israel but no Jews should live in Palestine? Um okay.

The settlements are controversial but the alternative is a middle east free of Jews.

I am not claiming Israel has done nothing wrong but they are clearly in an existential fight for survival.

Yes I agree with the bold part.

As for the rest, total lunacy and paranoia.

Israel has nukes and the US as an ally. Any country that seriously attacks Tel Aviv or Haifa would be flattened.

Heck, Israel wasn't far from using them in the Yom Kippur war, which is could have prevented in 1970.

Israeli's already live in what was called Palestine. They should not steal the lands of what remains of Palestine.

Israeli's already live in what was called Palestine. They should not steal the lands of what remains of Palestine. — Manuel

This is such a philosophically shallow debate.

Countries do not exist they are a linguistic turn invented humans. No animal else considers it lives in a country. Palestine was never a country but a region of the Middle east colonised Multiple times.

You are guilty of reification and making human constructs as if they were physical facts.

No one is entitled to anything, humans rights don't exist. We are just part of nature struggling to survive.

The survival of the Jews is apparently not high on your agenda.

Israel has nukes — Manuel

It can't use it's nukes on its own population. It is facing a civil war. That is the tactic of Hamas. Israel's neighbours know that they could never attack Israel without severe reprisals so they fund the Palestinians to attack them. They supply Hamas with weapons and money in a proxy war.

Yes I agree with the bold part. — Manuel

No you don't.

No one is entitled to anything, humans rights don't exist. We are just part of nature struggling to survive — Andrew4Handel

How can you partake in the ethical argument if this is your stance though? Aren't you just saying you've picked a side and that's it?

They didn't belong in Gaza in the first place. — Manuel

Because no Jews belong in the Middle East? I live in the UK which has over 6 million immigrants. Do they belong here. Who are YOU to decide who belongs where?

Yeah, sure. I don't like nation-states either. But that's what exists.

So by your logic, Israel asking other countries to recognize that it has "a right to exist" is also non-sense, which is true. Not state has such a right.

The survival of the Jews is apparently not high on your agenda. — Andrew4Handel

Again false. I want Israel to be safe and continue existing. It is a unique country with promising aspects to it.

But going down this road is creating monsters. And worse of all will lead to massive suffering for Israelis. It's a self-fufilling prophecy, we're in danger, we need to expand and attack or we'll get bombed. They do this and then get attacked. Yeah, no kidding.

Those who support Israel now support not only the misery they inflict on others, but also support the death and hatred for Israel which can only increase with such acts. So, actually, despite what you may say, you are supporting Israel's own misery too.

How can you partake in the ethical argument if this is your stance though. Aren't you just saying you've picked a side and that's it? — Baden

No. I am saying the premises of the debate are fallacious. Moral debates are mainly garbage. I am antinatalist/ No one who creates children has a moral leg to stand on in my opinion.

What is the ethical debate here anyway? I created a thread a long time ago about the validity of property and countries which received a handful of responses. People are not interested in the foundation of ethics or things like property but flair up about stereotypical tribal debates.

Hamas is ugly, but they fight back and give the people in Gaza a modicum of dignity. If Israel doesn't like Hamas, they should not have helped create them in the first place. Again, the Marxists at the WSJ can confirm this:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123275572295011847 — Manuel

:100: :fire:

It's the asshole rule: if you meet one asshole on your way to work, you met an asshole. If you meet only assholes, then you're the asshole. — Echarmion

:lol: :clap:

Again false. I want Israel to be safe and continue existing. It is a unique country with promising aspects to it. — Manuel

But you don't recognise Hamas as a terrorist organisation trying to destroy them or the previous attacks on Israel by it's neighbours an effort to destroy them? Israel won it's territory like most countries in a war it did not instigate.

But you don't recognise Hamas as a terrorist organisation trying to destroy them or the previous attacks on Israel by it's neighbours an effort to destroy them? Israel won it's territory like most countries in a war it did not instigate. — Andrew4Handel

I recognize Hamas as a terrorist organization which is a flea against the massive terror organization that is the IDF.

Hamas cannot destroy Israel. If they could, in some dreamland, they would be destroying themselves too.

Hamas cannot destroy Israel — Manuel

That is what they are doing now by stoking intercommunal violence.

Israel need psychiatric treatment. This is paranoia on steroids.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option

Israel need psychiatric treatment. This is paranoia on steroids. — Manuel

Has anyone fired 1,500 rockets at your house recently?

Which is a case in point of supreme lunacy.

Total insanity and evil.

Has anyone destroyed your whole neighborhood, limited your caloric intake and prevent you from leaving an open air prison?

Israel faces an existential threat to its existence which many people here seem to embrace.

open air prison? — Manuel

Created by Hamas killing its opponents and firing rockets into Israel.

Do you want Hamas to be allowed in to Israel to directly massacre the Jews?

It does not. Repeating this claim does not make it true.

There is no existential threat for Israel.

Created by Hamas killing its opponents and firing rockets into Israel.

Do you want Hamas to be allowed in to Israel to directly massacre the Jews? — Andrew4Handel

Did I say this?

On the other hand, killing people in an open air prison is perfectly fine for you.

But Hamas. Hamas. Yeah, those Hamas fighter jets and bunker bombs are an existential threat...

Which is a case in point of supreme lunacy.

Total insanity and evil — Manuel

So you think Israel should allow itself to be wiped out by people like yourself without defending itself and taking down its aggressors. I will be happy to die to prevent the defeat of Israel and its Anti-Semitic enemies. Israel taking it's enemies to its grave with it is highly desirable and is seeming a distinct possibility.

It does not. Repeating this claim does not make it true. — Manuel

The attempt to destroy Israel started immediately after it's foundation. That is how Palestinians lost territory. You are lying. Israel was attacked after is modern creation and several times after by Syria, Egypt, Jordan etc and sponsored by Iran. Who do you know that want's Israel to survive? Clearly not you.

What you think that Israel as last resort for not giving up land they are stealing should start WWIII!?!?

There are literally no words to describe such a consideration. Nothing.

We are talking about today, which is what matters.

After the 70's it's impossible for Israel to be destroyed. Nor would the US or the EU ever allow it.

But Hamas. Hamas. Yeah, those Hamas fighter jets and bunker bombs are an existential threat. — Manuel

You forgot to mention the 1,500 rockets fired into Israel. The only reason they didn't kill thousands of people is because of Israel's intelligent Iron dome project which intercepts these missiles. That you must be disappointed by.

We are talking about today, which is what matters. — Manuel

Yes. Israel is on the verge of civil war. There are around seven million Arabs and seven million Jews living in this area and you toxic inflammatory opinions are not going to bring peace. But for some reason you think you have a moral high ground. Puzzling.