Do you think Streetlight is a happy person? — Joshs

I don't think StreetlightX is person. It's a clearly an internet bot as it never really understands what it's talking about.

Countries are run and populated by people. Morality applies to their actions just fine. — Echarmion

Countries consist of millions of people interacting and consist of multiple different layers of government and in addition to those governments you have countless institutions which have their own rules and norms. To treat a country as if it were an individual person is just not a realistic description. Sure, there may be problems in certain institutions and not in others. Does that mean the entire country is just basically one person that we label as "evil?" Even powerful political leaders can't just press a button to make a certain problem go away unless it's totalitarianism.

But then again they are the weaker group compared to Israel — BitconnectCarlos

Well considering Israel murders Palestinians on a scale of orders of magnitude higher, while keeping the rest of them in concentration camp conditions, yes.

Hamas has never, ever been shy about its intentions: — BitconnectCarlos

It's just that they aren't in charge right now. If they were, it would be 'kill them! their lives mean nothing!'

Meanwhile the real Palestinians are being slaughtered. It's horrendous.

But real Palestinian lives don't matter to twoBit, whose unrealized fantasies justify ongoing genocide.

Hamas is in charge in Gaza right now.

"Peace" (i.e. win-win conflict resolution) is Israel's choice alone because it is the master; absent that, the Palestinians have no choice but that of the slave: death by war or death by subjugation. — 180 Proof

I think most sensible people would buy this, more or less, pretty much. How do you see this happening, given there are state actors - not Israeli - who do not want peace?

Fantasy time. The Israelis, a la Mountbatten, say, "Ok, June first we recognize Palestine as a free and independent country, and we offer aid to rehabilitate the land and assist the people. The Israelis withdraw troops, impose on themselves the high duty of being a good neighbor, & etc. That is, they do what in their power they can do to establish real peace, even with help from the west and anyone else who cares to contribute. Do you even for a moment think the other neighbors will help out with that? Maybe. Maybe after a long time - a long time which does not even start until real peace is happening.

My fantasy. What's yours?

Or more generally to anyone. Here is TPF, a self-styled philosophy site, and nearly everyone posting has reverted to hostility and anger whether actively or reactively. Let's instead create solutions. I rather like the Mountbatten approach - a variety of refusing to cut off the puppy dog's tail an inch at a time. I think Israelis are capable of peace. I'm not at all sure the others are.

Hamas is in charge in Gaza right now. — BitconnectCarlos

I meant they don't control the situation. Israel does.

But real Palestinian lives don't matter to twoBit, whose unrealized fantasies justify ongoing genocide. — StreetlightX

I have a hard time believing that.

Israel just re-entered Gaza because rockets were being fired into Israeli and killing Israelis. Prior to that Israel hasn't had any ground forces or settlements in Gaza since 2005.

He's made it clear enough. When someone tell you who they are, believe them. And he's a shill for a genocidal state whose actions are unimpeachable.

He's made it clear enough. When someone tell you who they are, believe them. And he's a shill for a genocidal state whose actions are unimpeachable. — StreetlightX

What's super clear to me is that human life means nothing to 180. He's basically a psychopath, though hopefully inactive.

Israel just re-entered Gaza because rockets were being fired into Israeli and killing Israelis. Prior to that Israel hasn't had any ground forces or settlements in Gaza since 2005. — BitconnectCarlos

You know why Hamas started bombing, right?

With the Covid situation a lot of countries in the Middle East are struggling more than usual. So who could possibly help the Palestinians now? Turkey? Egypt? Looks unlikely.

The US is still behind Israel. Biden on foreign policy has not been a big change, which is sad. — Manuel

Israel is a client state of the US. Nothing they do happens without the latter's backing. The game to be played is a long one. And one can taste the current in the air, and I'm not convinced it's carrying Israel's way.

It seems clear to me that - as of these recent actions - the reflexive line of 'criticism of Israel is anti-semitism' has withered away like the dead vine it is. Not even the propagandists like twoBit or Joshs can make the accusation - Joshs at least acknowledging, however cynically and insincerely - that Gaza is a hellscape that owes alot to Israel for it's condition, and twoBit doing acrobatics to avoid talking about it because he knows he has nothing to say. I think these kinds of things are emblematic. Boomers like Tim Hill recycle talking points from 30 years ago, but he and others like him will keel over and die soon enough. Everyone knows the playbook now. In that sense I think threads like these are emblematic. Watching Andrew Yang get torn a new one has been pretty satisfying - although one wishes it were Nancy Pelosi instead. Biden remains a spineless coward - as he is in everything he does - but as Greenwald notes, if you pay attention, the politics is changing too, whatever happens at the top level.

Israel is in a race against time. Their accelerating brutality attests to it. It may be that the winds of change - which are real and present - will not blow fast enough, but that would only mean that Israel will go full mask-off in the time they have left before that happens and simply bring their genocide to its logical conclusion. That could happen too. But I'm hopeful. But it will still mean that thousands of Palestinians will continue to die and suffer at the hands of Israel for at least the near future.

Here is TPF, a self-styled philosophy site, and nearly everyone posting has reverted to hostility and anger whether actively or reactively. Let's instead create solutions. — tim wood

That's because they seek to attribute blame, rather than understanding that both sides are afflicted by religious identity. The solution is simple - accept that we are all human beings, evolved from animal ignorance over thousands of years, and that religion occurs in the course of evolution, for the political purpose of uniting hunter gatherer tribes in a multi-tribal social group.

It took primitive man 35,000 years to figure out that tribes who believed in the same God, and the same set of moral laws could live together in peace. The problem occurs when one civilisation established on this basis, comes into contact with another, similarly constituted civilisation. They then have the same problem they started with - and theoretically, the solution is the same as it was for hunter gatherers. But I'm quietly confident humankind will become extinct before adopting science as a common understanding of reality.

You know why Hamas started bombing, right? — frank

The riots and clashes between protesters? Storming of the al-Aqsa mosque because the Palestinians were stockpiling weapons there?

Ask yourself this: Does anything justify the deliberate launching of rockets into residential areas for the purpose of murdering random civilians not responsible for the conflict?

Simple yes or no question: Do you support the rocket attacks into residential areas of Israel?

No. But I hold Israel responsible for every single person who dies in this conflict, including Israeli civilians.

:clap:

Excellent post.

There's only so much horror anybody is willing to see before your start losing a PR battle. Some people here aren't bothered by caloric restrictions placed on the people of Gaza, these will never be startled even if they carpet bomb the whole of Gaza and kill every last person with white phosphorus. But as you said, once the PR battle is lost, the clock begin to tick and there's no stopping that.

It's a microcosm of the history of humanity in a sense. Thousand upon thousand of senseless deaths and for what? Pride? "Security"? Nationalism? And yet here we are. We're born after a very long time, live in this little blue planet we're burning up for a nano-second, and we'll return to nothing for ever. To be killed in such a brutal manner, for mere political theatre is disgusting.

As you said, maybe these deaths will eventually mean that they will be able to get a state and live in peace. I think it may be possible.

Agree about Yang. He's on the wrong side of this one, as are almost all Democrats. But it is changing. About time.

Good to know, then you wish the rocket attacks into Israel would immediately stop? Once that happens Israel will stop responding with its own attacks.

Ask yourself this: Does anything justify the deliberate launching of rockets into residential areas for the purpose of murdering random civilians not responsible for the conflict? — BitconnectCarlos

This is the Hiroshima question. We could knock back and throw ideas around. Nobody ever does what they themselves conceive to be evil. Bla bla bla.

The Palestinians are being slaughtered, man. It's gut wrenching.

Once that happens Israel will stop responding with its own attacks. — BitconnectCarlos

No they won't. Because Israel has been on the offensive for the past 50 years. Israel does not 'respond' to anything. Israel is the aggressor, through and through.

Do I want the rocket attacks to stop? Yeah, but I don't feel too strongly about it.

Unlike, say, Israeli genocide.

More war crimes. How surprising.

Have they bombed any UN schools yet?

Can't say I'm surprised but its awful.

Videos like these are also why the other unthinking line of justification - "Israel has a right to defend itself" - will be shown to be the hollow, cynical, joke that it is. No one with a working lung and spleen will ever be able to take it seriously again.

This kind of fascism can only hide itself for so long.

Also, I kinda like @Joshs incoherent babbling in this thread. It's all they're reduced to. That, or the obvious racism of someone like twoBit. In all cases their rhetorical game is up. Which unfortunately usually means more violence. Nothing more dangerous than an animal whose time is coming - the Israeli ethnostate, in its current form.

Well, I think the line usually given for attacks such as this one would be something like "We destroyed the enemies communication center." Or the classic "human shields" answer.

One problem Israel faces, aside from those already mentioned, is that it's an extremely paranoid state. They keep actually believing that some Arab country will come and wipe them off the map. As if any Arab state would do that considering the fact that Israel's army is vastly superior and it has nukes to boot.

The US and the EU wouldn't ever come close to dreaming about something remotely close to that ever happening.

So under this paranoia they strike southern Lebanon, Gaza, Syria and kill Iranian scientists out of fear. Which then acts as self-fufilling prophecy when they get hit back on occasion.

In any case the most fanatic of all Arab states is Saudi Arabia. Rhetoric aside, at the top level, there is mutual understanding and maybe even friendship of interest with Israel. So that can be ruled out too.

Gentlemen - with apologies to any ladies present - after playing with it for about twenty pages it's time to put it back it your pants and zip up. Solutions? Anything? Anyone?

And some vapid shit like Number2018 will say that all this isn't about Israel, employing philosophy in the most cynical, self-serving manner - or should I say copy-pasting, considering that is the only thing he or she knows how to do . — StreetlightX

iIn principle, we need to determine if Zizek's line of thought still could be relevant. Zizek offered a particular model of a political unconscious. Do we deal here, in this thread, with a kind of ideological system, implying the implicit dimensions and mechanisms? A keen anti-Israeli debater contends that Israel bears full responsibility for the existence and escalations of the Arab Israeli conflict. Her (or his) vision of the conflict and its resolution presupposes exhaustive knowledge of facts and the ultimate rightness of her ethical and moral believes. She possesses clear distinctions and dichotomies between good and evil, light and darkness, victims and aggressors. These positions are backed and reinforced by intensive affective and emotional commitments and responses. Strikingly, these cognitive and affective patterns are not necessarily may be evoked by the atrocity and inhumanity of the current conflict in the Middle East. Three years ago, she demonstrated almost identical attitudes during Justice Kavanaugh's nomination.
Last summer, in a similar manner, she championed BLM's cause and fought for racial justice. On any occasion, she promotes an extreme, left-wing viewpoint. So far, her repetitive patterns are not necessarily symptomatic because they can indicate the aspiration to change our overall societal order ultimately. Yet, there are a few more factors: she regularly acts in concert with the intensive mass media hysteric events, maintained and reinforced by the corporate media, big tech companies, and the neoliberal elites. Regardless of the content of a particular event, she always takes part in the intensification of the left identity politics, causing the erosion and degradation of liberal individual values and the progressive concentration of power. Therefore, the conscious revolutionary desire for radical change disguises the unconscious counter-revolutionary totalitarian aspirations. The creation and proliferation of the newest tribal identities incorporate the production of their doubles, the opposite ideological figures, invested with negativity and monstrosity: 'a sexual predator,' 'a racist,' 'a fascist,' 'an apartheid Israel,' ‘a science denier’, etc. The ideological figure of Zizek's 'Jew' has been replaced, transformed, and proliferated 'to stitch up the inconsistency of our own ideological system.' The newly created 'pathological, paranoid constructions' swiftly occupy digital platforms and all our sites of public social life. Not just a left-wing intellectual, but all of us are programmed to mirror and reflect our ideological others. Yet, comparing with Zizek's analyses, there is a new assemblage of desire and identification. The decisive role of the digital medium in the reproduction of our political unconscious makes Zizek’s reliance on Lacanian concepts unproductive and ineffective.

I'm surprised at the level of black and white fallacies being posted here. This is a philosophy forum and the biases and fallacies going on in this thread just make this whole forum look like garbage. Why is it that whenever someone criticizes Israel's killings of children, civilians, using banned white phosphorus attacks, the apartheid control, and the extreme magnitude of kills compared to what Palestinian rockets manages to do, all the Israel military apologists just screams "so you support the rocket killings by Hamas, huh??"

Never seen such fucking low-level discussion in a place dedicated to rational thought. Maybe 4-chan kind of forums is a better intellectual level for some in here. I thought this was a place to have a higher level of discussion, but I guess I was wrong about that.