It matters because there's a difference between what we actually experience and what we take on faith or intellectualize.

No serious Zen student will speak of their own path. Even if you thought it appropriate, it is not possible to convey because it is non-intellectual (and 100% experience). you understand another through their actions.

[quote="praxis;525869"I think thinking about things and theorizing can be thoughtful and thorough. Faith ain't noth'n to tilt your nose up at either. However, if we have an aversion to such things, for whatever odd reason, then what is left to have faith in but our own experience. — praxis

There is nothing wrong with anything (in absolute terms), it's all about intention. Intellectualizing is obviously an extremely important part of what we do, BUT, it is how you view and how you use this tool which determines outcome.

It is one thing to think something, it;s another to believe that your thoughts are true in any universal sense. Although they may come close to your own truth, it is only that way for that specific moment as all things knowable are in constant flux.

Faith is very important and I have always been closest with those who have great faith (mostly religious folks). There are many ways to seek truth and religion is one way that has created comfort for a great many over the centuries.

If you are able to give up your critical mind when it comes to other people, I believe you will find that simply observing the quality of another's existence will give you the best insight as to whether their path is working.

What comfort did religion give Abraham when it forced him to try to murder his only son? What comfort did it give Issac to know his God authorized his "hit?

In my opinion, all the standard bearers of American capitalism who are patriots could demonstrate their patriotism by giving half of the wealth they have accumulated to the rest of their compatriots whom they have not stopped plundering. — gikehef947

I believe you are making this an emotional thing and therefore becoming idealistic. Economics is more about human nature.

Communisim is really bad news, and communism is a pipe-dream. I think everybody understands this (or should if they are aware of 19th/20th century history).

Capitalism works really well but needs to be regulated properly. The problems we have been having over the past 50-100 years have to do with two factors, political corruption and the corruption of markets. This is what happens when man gets involved with anything but the amazing thing is that even though this system is incredible distorted (by corruption), it still functions.

Much of the corruption has come from the socialization of almost every damn thing. The more government gets involved, the more opportunity there is for funny business. The solution is to clean house. We could do with a lot less government, but the government we do have needs to function properly.

Like everything, you gotta take the bad with the good.

I don't really know that much about formal religion, per se, but the people who I do know who are quite knowledgeable (and from what I have read) seem to believe that (on balance) it seems to be a positive force for individual and social good.

Perhaps you are better informed than am I.

In my humble opinion Buddhism along with Jainism of course bears the unmistakable signature of "expansive inclusivism" on steroids so to speak. By this I mean to bring to the fore the fact that Buddhist (& Jain) moral theories encompasses not just humans but is intended to cover all living things, life as a whole with no exceptions at all.

Compare this to communism which is rather provincial in this respect, making a big deal of only a specific stratum of the human socio-political strucure to wit the so-called proletariat.

That out of the way, I have to admit that on this view the difference betwixt Buddhism (& Jainism) and communism is a matter of degrees and not kind, that the religion is faring much better than the political theory begs an explanation; after all, communism with its concern for the working class (only humans) is close to home while Buddhism is, in this respect, a completely radical outlook. It's as if a person performs better, is more successful when fae takes care of strangers rather than faer own family. A paradox in its own right.

It matters because there's a difference between what we actually experience and what we take on faith or intellectualize.
~ praxis

No serious Zen student will speak of their own path. Even if you thought it appropriate, it is not possible to convey because it is non-intellectual (and 100% experience). — synthesis

You mentioned how a “fully enlightened person” can live a life full of suffering but not see this as good or bad, just simply the way it is. Aside from being nonsensical on the face of it — if it were actually experienced as neither good or bad then it would not be categorized as ‘suffering’ — it’s very odd that a person can’t tell if they suffer, particularly if they can see things with any clarity, or that there would be the least bit of hesitation in relating their experience.

Anyone can intellectualize that a life isn’t good or bad and is ‘just the way it is’. What we actually experience, on the other hand, precedes our intellection.

To be ashamed of suffering is itself suffering.

What you call "communism" I call Christianity. The only thing that is well distributed in capitalism is poverty for the majority and violence for the rest of the world.
The government is taken over by the lobbies. That D. Trump was crowned president says it all. The wolf and the fox guarding the chicken coop. The United States has not even been able to convict a guy who tried to carry out a self-coup or put him behind bars. Alberto Fujimori succeeded and, despite everything, Peru condemned him and remains in the Barbadillo jail. Today's Peruvian democracy is healthier than that of the United States. Is it acceptable?
Capitalism worked much better while it had the threat of communism. The governments in the hands of the capitalists found it necessary to distribute part of their wealth to prevent the majority of the population from voting for the communists.
Today the next target of capitalism to beat is democracy. Hitler kept the capitalist system intact, funneling tens of billions of dollars to arms manufacturers, financiers, and industrialists. He cleaned up the state companies with public money to sell them to the capitalists and settle scores by looting the Jews and any opponents of the regime. He dismantled German democracy. Next? Ban rival political parties, suspend civil liberties, ban unions, have thousands of political opponents assassinated and impose martial law ... and make unimaginable to think another thing. This was fascism: the operation of government for the benefit of corporations and the wealthy. We all know what happened next: they increased the extortion apparatus of the German state, they looted the resources of the rest of the countries through the war machine (if you want, we can talk about oil and mineral resources from Iraq, Syria or Afghanistan) and they liquidated without hesitation anyone who opposed them abroad (especially in those "shit countries" that Trump was talking about).
The Germans of the interwar period, the non-Jews, had the same opinion as you: that capitalism was a magnificent system for doing good & funnies business. The Polish did not think exactly the same. The fun business here is murder there.
This is unacceptable. It is outside of Christianity.

What you call "communism" I call Christianity. — gikehef947

That's fair. Marxism/communism is very much like a religion.

The only thing that is well distributed in capitalism is poverty for the majority and violence for the rest of the world. — praxis

That's false. There will always be a disparity of everything between individuals. It's just the way people are. Capitalism has its issues, no doubt, but look at what it has done to raise people out of poverty. If you don't believe this to be the case, you need to go back and study the history of the 16th-17th-18th-19th centuries. Life was brutal beyond belief.

The government is taken over by the lobbies. That D. Trump was crowned president says it all. The wolf and the fox guarding the chicken coop. The United States has not even been able to convict a guy who tried to carry out a self-coup or put him behind bars. Alberto Fujimori succeeded and, despite everything, Peru condemned him and remains in the Barbadillo jail. Today's Peruvian democracy is healthier than that of the United States. Is it acceptable? — praxis

You need to get over the Trump thing. Look at the fool who is president now. This guy was a joke in Delaware 50 years ago. Now he is just pathetic puppet of the left.

Next? Ban rival political parties, suspend civil liberties, ban unions, have thousands of political opponents assassinated and impose martial law ... and make unimaginable to think another thing. This was fascism: the operation of government for the benefit of corporations and the wealthy. — praxis

Sounds very much like the left's agenda.

The Germans of the interwar period, the non-Jews, had the same opinion as you: that capitalism was a magnificent system for doing good & funnies business. The Polish did not think exactly the same. The fun business here is murder there.
This is unacceptable. It is outside of Christianity. — praxis

You have one narrative and every single thing has to fit into it. You need to open your mind a bit and see that everything is not black and white.

The entire Marxist thing was put in the dumpster a few decades ago.

Sorry, the above comments were made to gikehef not praxis.

Your dumpster argument is black and white

Marx's critique of capitalism is beyond brilliant and has already gone down in history as such, but what he and Frederic did with the social interpolation was create a succession of events that still creates desperation and death one hundred and seventy years later.

Believing that humanity's salvation could be found within governmental structure is one of the greatest miscalculations of all-time.

It is about what reduces pain in life and death as you lay in a hospital bed. Foxnews says today "we're not communists, we don't like being told what to do". So their Christian heritage in the end made them prideful

The only thing that is well distributed in capitalism is poverty for the majority and violence for the rest of the world.
— praxis

That's false. There will always be a disparity of everything between individuals. It's just the way people are. Capitalism has its issues, no doubt, but look at what it has done to raise people out of poverty. If you don't believe this to be the case, you need to go back and study the history of the 16th-17th-18th-19th centuries. Life was brutal beyond belief. — synthesis

Not entirely false, there's a tendency for government to side with capital, for obvious reasons, and the rights and power of the working class diminishes. Those lifted tend to not be lifted for long because it's an inherently unsustainable model.

The government is taken over by the lobbies. That D. Trump was crowned president says it all. The wolf and the fox guarding the chicken coop. The United States has not even been able to convict a guy who tried to carry out a self-coup or put him behind bars. Alberto Fujimori succeeded and, despite everything, Peru condemned him and remains in the Barbadillo jail. Today's Peruvian democracy is healthier than that of the United States. Is it acceptable?
— praxis

You need to get over the Trump thing. Look at the fool who is president now. This guy was a joke in Delaware 50 years ago. Now he is just pathetic puppet of the left. — synthesis

What has he done as president that is pathetic?

Perhaps you need to get over the Left thing.

Ban rival political parties, suspend civil liberties, ban unions, have thousands of political opponents assassinated and impose martial law ... and make unimaginable to think another thing. This was fascism: the operation of government for the benefit of corporations and the wealthy.
— praxis

Sounds very much like the left's agenda. — synthesis

Trump Administration Civil and Human Rights Rollbacks

Anti-union Actions By The Trump Administration

Trump’s ‘Big Lie’ was bigger than just a stolen election

The Germans of the interwar period, the non-Jews, had the same opinion as you: that capitalism was a magnificent system for doing good & funnies business. The Polish did not think exactly the same. The fun business here is murder there.
This is unacceptable. It is outside of Christianity.
— praxis

You have one narrative and every single thing has to fit into it. You need to open your mind a bit and see that everything is not black and white.

The entire Marxist thing was put in the dumpster a few decades ago. — synthesis

Socialism is alive and well, even in America, though it could stand to be more widely adopted.

If you believe that the disparity of individuals (genetics?) explains differences in wealth, you have an adolescent's view of society. You better keep looking at the NBA. As far as I know, the concentration of wealth in the hands of a few is explained in terms of robbery and murder. The most outlaw and scoundrel takes the jackpot. The super scoundrels control the government and exercise power so that their crimes do not land them in jail. Trump is the symptom. He is not Jefferson. He is not Roosevelt. He is an idiot, a manifestation that you end up in jail if you don't have enough money to avoid it. In Evil you trust. I'm afraid you're out outside of Christianity, of the morality indeed.

You can study contemporary history. Wikileaks, for example. In a world where the happiness of a few depends on the unhappiness and death of the majority, an attempt is made to condemn the messenger who publishes blood crimes. Do you know why former American leaders avoid leaving the country? It is not for the love of the country. Kissinger has spent decades on US soil avoiding activating an international arrest warrant for his responsibility in the criminal government of Augusto Pinochet. Are you read the parable of the temptations of Jesus in the desert? You have given in to the temptations of the devil and the worst thing is how little money must have been enough for you to bow down to him.

If you regards Biden as the left, you only manifests simplicity . Bernie Sanders is to the right of the ideology of any European Social Democratic party. Someone incapable of defending health coverage for the entire population, unemployment benefits, paid parental leave and the care of dependent parents, retirement and the protection of the most marginalized groups belongs to the left. They are absolute duties, performed in those states where bandits do not extract all the wealth of the nation through the government action.

No billionaire has been able to concentrate so much wealth except by stealing the present and future of entire generations inside or outside the country. If they are so patriotic, let them give half of their fortune to others. What measures do successive governments take? Lower his taxes. And you think it's good.

Gospel is too complex for Kindergarten. Keep watching the NBA. It is the Disney channel for adults.

f you believe that the disparity of individuals (genetics?) explains differences in wealth, you have an adolescent's view of society. You better keep looking at the NBA. As far as I know, the concentration of wealth in the hands of a few is explained in terms of robbery and murder. The most outlaw and scoundrel takes the jackpot. The super scoundrels control the government and exercise power so that their crimes do not land them in jail. Trump is the symptom. He is not Jefferson. He is not Roosevelt. He is an idiot, a manifestation that you end up in jail if you don't have enough money to avoid it. In Evil you trust. I'm afraid you're out outside of Christianity, of the morality indeed. — gikehef947

I get all that but it's just the part that fits your narrow narrative. Tell you what, you accomplish what Trump has and then you can talk. I am no great Trump fan, as well, but you have to look at all things with balance. Do you believe that somehow you are intellectually enlightened and half the country are babbling idiots? If this is the case, then it is you who thinks as a child.

[quote="gikehef947;526596"You can study contemporary history. Wikileaks, for example. In a world where the happiness of a few depends on the unhappiness and death of the majority, an attempt is made to condemn the messenger who publishes blood crimes. Do you know why former American leaders avoid leaving the country? It is not for the love of the country. Kissinger has spent decades on US soil avoiding activating an international arrest warrant for his responsibility in the criminal government of Augusto Pinochet. Are you read the parable of the temptations of Jesus in the desert? You have given in to the temptations of the devil and the worst thing is how little money must have been enough for you to bow down to him.[/quote]

Are we speaking of politics or religion here? Pick your poison, please.

Everybody knows all of this. Empires are what they are. They do good and they do bad but they are all a product of human nature. Should we all try to make things better? Of course, but man is who he is. Try not to only look at the bad. It will make you only a very unhappy fellow.

[quote="gikehef947;526596"If you regards Biden as the left, you only manifests simplicity . Bernie Sanders is to the right of the ideology of any European Social Democratic party. Someone incapable of defending health coverage for the entire population, unemployment benefits, paid parental leave and the care of dependent parents, retirement and the protection of the most marginalized groups belongs to the left. They are absolute duties, performed in those states where bandits do not extract all the wealth of the nation through the government action.

Biden is a combination of many bad influences plus he is the consummate corrupt politician (besides being a moron). You ever listen to this guy speak? I have for the past 50 years. The guy is not exactly a Rhodes Scholar.

And if you think he is really interested in helping people, you haven't been paying much attention. It's all bullshit. They have had the chance to help people since the 60's and instead they have turned American cities into vile cesspools of hopelessness, dependency, despair, and death.

They care...right!

[quote="gikehef947;526596"No billionaire has been able to concentrate so much wealth except by stealing the present and future of entire generations inside or outside the country. If they are so patriotic, let them give half of their fortune to others. What measures do successive governments take? Lower his taxes. And you think it's good.[/quote]

And isn't it amazing that almost all of these billionaires are Democrats. How could that be possible? Politics is a scam, always has been, always will be. The only reason that people organize to to grab power and money. That's99% of it. The rest of bullshit for the masses.

[quote="gikehef947;526596"Gospel is too complex for Kindergarten. Keep watching the NBA. It is the Disney channel for adults.[/quote]
No need to demonstrate your insecurity by attempting to put others down. It adds nothing to the conversation.

You write like a child. The worst thing is that you think like a child too.
I don't care about the Republican party or the Democrat. Ultra far right and far right respectively. It makes no difference to me that you criticizes Biden. Another old man like Trump.
Those politicians are for what they are for: saving taxes for billionaires, distributing debts and miseries to the rest of the population and, basically, poisoning the environment.
None of this seems to me to be of interest to the majority. To get the majority of people interested in issues that run counter to their material interest, they have to be alienated or infantilized. That is why I no longer will argue with you. It's like trying to teach algebra with a three-year-old... Do I seem insecure enough to you?

Do I seem insecure enough to you? — gikehef947

Yeah, and quite angry, as well.

Good luck to you!