Try this for a starting point. Remember, most of what you asked reading is from a Western bias perspective. Hoover, given the importance of astronomy (astrology) to trade, it is highly likely there was an interchange of cultural knowledge.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_astrology

Search "Zeno and Nargarjuna".

I'm not sure what you mean by "Western bias".

I don't really care which direction the influence was as long as there is evidence for it. Greek and Babylonian influence on Indian astronomy, for example, is acknowledged even by Indian writers.

See Satyendra Nath Naskar, Foreign Impact on Indian Life and Culture (c. 326 B.C. to c. 300 A.D.), 1996, for example.

I don't think serious scholars really dispute that different civilisations or cultures mutually influence one another. Unfortunately, I can't find anything concrete on philosophy, hence my question.

Try searching Parmenides, Zeno, or Eleatic school and India. They are close in thought, as is Plato (as you remark). Indian art for me is decadent Platonism, or Platonism taken to it's natural conclusion

there's an excellent book called The Shape of Ancient Thought, by art historian Thomas McEvilly. It was published around late 2000's - he has since died - but was about 30 years in the making, and is based on primary sources throughout. A caveat - I don't know how well this book is regarded in the academic world, as he was an art historian, not a tenured lecturer or professor; when I did an MA in Buddhist Studies in 2011-12, there was no awareness of that book. But I found it highly persuasive:

The book argues that Eastern and Western civilizations have not always had separate, autonomous metaphysical schemes, but have mutually influenced each other over a long period of time. Examining ancient trade routes, imperialist movements, and migration currents, he shows how some of today’s key philosophical ideas circulated and intermingled freely in the triangle between Greece, India, and Persia, leading to an intense metaphysical interchange between Greek and Indian cultures.

As the author explains it, "The records of caravan routes are like the philosophical stemmata of history, the trails of oral discourses moving through communities, of texts copied from texts. . . .What they reveal is not a structure of parallel straight lines—one labeled ‘Greece,’ another ‘Persia,’ another ‘India’—but a tangled web in which an element in one culture often leads to elements in others."

Bear in mind, the Alexandrian empire gave rise to the 'greco-bactrian' style of Buddhist sculpture, which became quite famous. Good wiki article here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhist_art

There's also a school of thought that the Greek sceptic Pyrrho of Elis visited the Alexandrian empire and studied with Buddhists. There's a book Adam Kuzminski Pyrrhonism: How the Ancient Greeks Reinvented Buddhism. (Beware of a later book on the same topic by Christopher Beckwith, many of his claims are contested by other scholars.) There's an influential paper on this topic also Pyrrho and India, Everard Flintoff.

The Questions of King Milinda is an interesting exchange between a Buddhist scholar and the Indo-Greek King Menander.

:up: That text, known in Pali as the Milinda-panha, is one of the world's oldest written texts, and a splendid historical example of philosophical dialectic. (That said, the Platonist in me would point out to Ven. Nagasena, that even if 'a particular chariot' was dissembled and, so no more, the 'idea of the chariot' remains, and those who had that idea, would have a distinct advantage on the battlefield.)

The other historical scholar you should read about (if you haven't already) is Max Muller, who was a pioneering Sanskritist - almost became the first Professor of Sanskrit at Oxford. (He was however the first Gifford Lecturer.) But the really interesting thing about Muller was his theory of 'linguistic archeology' which traced the ancient lineage of the Indo-European languages by studying common word roots. He was a major contributor to the idea of the Indo-European diaspora which formed the basis for Indian, Persian, and ancient Greek culture.

Many thanks, everybody! I really appreciate your replies.

As a general observation, the fact is that there are many striking parallels between Platonism and Indian philosophy.

For example, the so-called “parable of the chariot” in which the Indian version has the horses standing for the senses, the chariot for the body, the charioteer for the intellect and the rider for the soul (Katha Upanishad).

Now, an almost identical version is found in Greek writers like Plato, Parmenides and Xenophon.

Another example that strikes me is the tripartite division of the soul into distinct psychological aspects/functions.

Greek:

έπιθυμητικόν epithymetikon sensual aspect

θυμός thymos emotional aspect

λογιστικόν logistikon intellectual aspect

Indian:

मनस् manas sensual aspect

अहंकार ahamkara emotional aspect

बुद्धि buddhi intellectual aspect

Also, the concept of a higher inner soul/man - Greek νοῦς nous, Indian पुरुष purusha - that is connected downwards with the body-mind complex and upwards with God. See Plotinus, et al.

And it doesn’t stop there.

Obviously, I am not in a position, at this point in time, to determine who influenced whom or whether there was a third, common source (Egyptian/Babylonian?).

However, as regards astrology, the consensus seems to be that Hellenistic astrology drew on Mesopotamian and Egyptian sources in the second and first millennia BC and flourished for centuries until it began to decline in the West under Christianity. But it survived in Persia, it influenced Indian astrology and was transmitted to the Islamic world (from where it was re-introduced into Europe).

I haven’t got a theory with respect to philosophy but, as a theoretical possibility, could Platonic traditions have followed a somewhat similar trajectory?

For example, tradition has it that Pythagoras went to Egypt to acquire “secret knowledge” and apparently, in the 6th century CE, the last leading philosophers from the Platonic Academy at Athens settled in Persia from where Platonism passed into the Arab world.

It would be difficult to prove, but equally difficult to disprove, the possibility that Platonists went even further east, reaching India where they may have influenced certain currents of local philosophy and mysticism. Hence it may be worthwhile looking for parallels in Indian traditions that emerged in the early Middle Ages whose appearance may be explained with the help of external influence.

As regards Buddhism, I find the concept of kshanikavada or momentariness, which seems to have passed into certain Hindu traditions, very interesting. Personally, I feel that with some modifications, it may be acceptable to Platonists and even to Christian philosophers. I would very much like to discuss this some day.

Hi first of all congratulations for such an interesting thread and information shared. Without having read everything in detail just two points:

1- Did you consider that both are indoeuropean languages and these might be cognates? Often some scholars with nationalistic views use these words to claim one language influenced the other. Maybe the same IE origin logic could be applied to the common teachings.

2- Are νους and upper soul ψυχή the same in the platonic context? I don't believe they are, soul and νους are distinct enteties with different attributes.

Hi there.

1. If the etymology of "hora" and "sunapha" had been proposed by "scholars with nationalistic views" I wouldn't have considered it. You may rest assured that I always check my sources very carefully.

"Sunapha" is mentioned by scholars like Mircea Eliade who had the highest respect for Indian spirituality (see Yoga and Immortality, etc). As for "hora", the Gargi Samhita and other Sanskrit works expressly state that the astronomy/astrology they deal with is of Yunani (i.e. Greek) origin.

2. ψυχή and νους are often used in different senses/contexts. Even in modern Greek both of them can mean "soul" but also "mind" depending on the context. The way I see it, psyche is really the soul (endowed with a body and mind) but is essentially identical with νους or spirit.

It is precisely this essential identity of soul with spirit that enables man to ascend to the higher worlds of spirit.

PS If we think of creation as a process of manifestation of the lower by the higher, then soul, spirit and God are essentially identical.

Have it as you like.

Regarding the origin of the word hora can't find any reference to what you and your illustrated sources are saying only that the origin of the word can be traced to proto indoeuropean.

To be honest remember once someone claiming that the Greek γνω- came from the the sanskrit jna- as in Jnana Yoga (yes these claims can work both ways), however according to the info available they are cognates.

If they're cognates, that's even better. Something to celebrate, not worry about IMO : )

Regarding hora, have you tried the Wikipedia article "Indian Astronomy"?

Last time I looked it said “Greek astronomical ideas began to enter India in the 4th century BCE”

Last time I checked we were discussing the alleged "Greek origin" of the Sanskrit word hora mentioned at the start, not Greek influence on Indian astrology.
If there's no problem of being cognates and no evidence of the contrary, then "case closed" :)

Well, the consensus view is that "hora" entered the Sanskrit language along with Greek astrology, that was my point.

For example, Moriz Winternitz says that the 6th-century astronomer Varāhamihira wrote a work called Brhajjātaka which was also known as Horāshāstra i.e., Science of Horā/Horoscope/Astrology, where horā is a Greek word (“ὥρα”): Geschichte der indischen Literatur, 3 Bände, Leipzig 1905-1922, III, p. 569, text available at archive.org

However, if you think that Sanskrit होरा and Greek ὥρα are cognates, that's fine by me. I don't believe in communism, I believe in individualism and plurality of views.

It seems you created a topic for these words elsewhere and someone confirmed sunaphā as a loanword from Greek. If you have evidence hora has the same origin then no point in discussing it.

The etymology of sunapha and hora has been established for a long time, it doesn't need "confirmation" by anyone and I'm not discussing it.

The topic of the thread is parallels and interchanges between Greek and Indian philosophy. I thought this was clear.

If you don't mind, I needed confirmation. When you hear "cry wolf" for too long you may not believe when the wolf finaly arrives ;)

Curious enough, even though you see Greece influencing India, the beliefs you expressed earlier seem close to Advaita Vedânta than Platonism.

It isn't "me" that sees Greece influencing India, it's the academic consensus that Greece influenced India in terms of art, astronomy, astrology and medicine. Please refer to Wikipedia and other online articles on the subject.

As regards philosophy, nobody seems to know who influenced whom, hence the topic I wanted to discuss. I only said that there is a theoretical possibility of Greek influence on some currents of Indian philosophy, not all.

Humans communicate, exchange ideas and cultures do influence each other. Why do you find the concept of Greek influence so unsettling?

The fact is that parallels do exist as you yourself admit. The normal course of discussion is to establish what the parallels are and then look into the issue of interchange and diffusion. If it can be shown that India influenced Greece, that's OK by me. But we haven't got there yet.

And yes, there are parallels between Platonism and Advaita. I'm not disputing that at all, quite on the contrary.

Did anyone say it is unsettling?

To some extent it might be counter intuitive. During the Principate period things were seen the other way around. You can find it in Plotinus desire to visit India and a modern theory that his teacher Sakkas came from those parts, in Apollonius of Tyana actually doing it, and if I'm not mistaken Pythagoras was also believed at that point to have learned from the Brahmins. Then you have the modern claim Jesus visited India.

However in the end of the day it is irrelevant. Did A influence B directly or through an intermediary, or vice versa, were both influenced by a contemporary C or a common ancestor, or did they arrive at similar conclusions in some things?At some point one realizes the important thing is the teachings, if they are useful or not, accurate or not.

They are both paths of self knowledge, there are also significant differences in their doctrines, at least as far as my current understanding of both allows me to see.

Of course they are both paths of self knowledge. That's exactly why it may be useful to establish the parallels between the two. If nothing else, we may find in one what is missing in the other and this might help us to complete our knowledge of monistic philosophy.

However, we can’t reinvent the wheel. We must rely on known facts as established by academic consensus.

You said that you didn’t read my post in detail. Maybe you should now because I never said that Greek influence on Indian philosophy was an established fact. I only mentioned it as a possibility, as something that needs to be established.

Let me clarify this for you. Philosophy is about one’s worldview or Weltanschauung, one’s perception of the world. In the ancient world, this included a wide range of related fields such as astrology, religion and magic.

The belief that the human soul could ascend to the stars meant that philosophy was closely interconnected with astronomy and astrology. This is why Platonic philosophers from Plato onwards also concerned themselves with astronomy and astrology, see Plotinus, Porphyry and others.

If Greek astronomy and astrology influenced Indian traditions, as seems to have been the case, then it is reasonable to ask whether along with astronomy and astrology there was also some influence on philosophy. So, IMO the question is not quite as out of place as you are suggesting.

To be honest, I'd like nothing more than for there to have been some kind of two-way knowledge/ideas transfer between Greek and Indian thinkers. It would be a tremendous source of inspiration and also set a fine precedent for modern Greeks and Indians and by extension other world cultures.

However, there's the small matter of Multiple Discovery. Nonetheless, linguistic evidence of near-identical words seems inexplicable in terms of multiple discovery theory. What's probably even more fascinating is how these memes - these are memes after all - found willing hosts in both cultures separated by vast tracts of ocean and land; it suggests that the lives, hopes, aspirations, fears, porblems, etc., the overall mise-en-scéne of the two culutures were by and large alike.

I think we are on the same page there. After Alexander the Great, the western world including parts of the Middle East was very much Hellenized and Hellenistic and Indian culture obviously intersected or overlapped to some extent as shown by Indian temple art and astronomy/astrology.

In any case, a cursory overview reveals a large number of parallels (the list is incomplete and provisional and possibly not entirely accurate on one or two points):

The tripartite composition of the soul.
The concept of a higher and lower self, one divine and one human.
Union of the human soul with God as the ultimate goal of life.
Five elements (earth, water, fire, air and ether) that constitute the universe.
Five sensory faculties: sight, smell, taste, hearing and touch.
The concept of cosmic creation by a process of emanation Greek απόρροια aporrhoia from the highest spiritual principle (God/the One).
Triadic cycle of abiding-procession-return, Greek μονή mone, πρόοδος proodos, επιστροφή epistrophe
Impermanence or “illusory” nature of the physical world.
The concept of the “heart” as the innermost core of the self, Greek καρδιά kardia, Sanskrit हृद् hRd and its role in attaining enlightenment or salvation.
Salvation through a process of psychic/spiritual purification, illumination and deification culminating in unity with God.
Prayer, meditation and contemplation as a means of attaining enlightenment/salvation.
Magical/spiritual formulas or “mantras” as an aid to invocation, concentration, interiorisation of consciousness, etc.
Remembrance or recognition of God.
Observance of certain moral and ethical precepts.
Set of obstacles encountered on the path that are to be overcome.
Renunciation of or indifference to material things as an aid to spiritual advancement.
The concept of “divine grace”, Greek χάρις haris, Sanskrit शक्तिपात shaktipāta and its role in spiritual salvation.
Supernatural powers or divine gifts Greek χαρίσματα charismata Sanskrit सिद्धि siddhi accomplishments, as a manifestation of divine grace and spiritual advancement.
The role of a spiritual teacher or master as a guide on the path.
Reincarnation or metempsychosis, etc., etc.

I’m fully aware that there is a difference between parallels and diffusion. But if we can establish a number of parallels beyond what can reasonably be regarded as “coincidence” or "multiple discovery", then I think we have good reason to at least try to look into the problem of diffusion or origin.

The Sanskrit terms corresponding to Greek abiding-procession-return (μονή mone, πρόοδος proodos, επιστροφή epistrophe) are सृष्टि sRshti, स्थिति stithi and संहार samhāra

When it comes to Indian traditions of the mystical-philosophical type that emerged in the Middle Ages it may also be worthwhile considering some Platonic influence via Christian and Islamic currents - Sufism would be a good candidate - that seem unrelated superficially but may be bearers of Platonic material on a deeper level.

For example, we find isolated Arabic words like falsafa from Greek φιλοσοφία philosophia and karamat from Greek χαρίσματα charismata.

However, these isolated words point to broader influence. When we take a closer look, we find that there was extensive borrowing from Hellenistic/Christian sources and we can clearly identify striking parallels at the level of vocabulary (concepts and technical terms) as well as practice in spiritual currents like Sufism that can’t be explained away as accidental.

Louis Massignon, Essay on the Origins of the Technical Language of Islamic Mysticism.
F. Donner, Narratives of Islamic Origins.
Margaret Smith, The Way of the Mystics: The Early Christian Mystics and the Rise of the Sufis.
Philip Jenkins, The Lost History of Christianity.
Lloyd Ridgeon, The Cambridge Companion to Sufism.