Science can make accurate predictions about the world, unlike a shaman.

But our best science at the moment seems to imply that our universe is probabilistic and not determined.

Dennett believes in free will as well. I'm not seeing the problem with truth here.

Science can make accurate predictions about the world, unlike a shaman. — emancipate

Science is doing nothing. It is all determined, including your observations that it is more accurate. No one is doing anything except reporting in a determined universe, and they are only reporting what was determined they should report.

But our best science at the moment seems to imply that our universe is probabilistic and not determined.

Dennett believes in free will as well. I'm not seeing the problem with truth here. — Manuel

I am not speaking of science and its inconsistent views about the universe, e.g. Einstein's block time vs..probabilistic quantum waves. I am more interested in the meaningless of determinism as applied to life.

Dennett believes in determinism and some sort of fabricated ability to choose, which can be classified under the heading, "having a cake and eat it". However, since, he believes in determinism, then I appreciate his opening his mouth and making determined sounds.

I am not speaking of science and its inconsistent views about the universe, e.g. Einstein's block time vs..probabilistic quantum waves. I am more interested in the meaningless of determinism as applied to life. — MondoR

Well, I mean I don't know if science has any views per se. People doing science have views, often very different views it seems to me.

But I do agree that determinism doesn't make much sense, as I understand it anyway.

Well, I mean I don't know if science has any views per se. People doing science have views, often very different views it seems to me. — Manuel

Unfortunately, in the field of medical sciences, science has adopted a mechanistic view of life, not admitting to the mind. This view is being somewhat dismembered by the revelation that the gut had an "enteric brain".

Yes - the mechanistic picture of the world keeps popping back up, even though it was refuted by Newton hundreds of years ago.

It appears that we have a mechanistic out-look built into the way we see the world, we can't help re-postulating it in some manner. Problematizing the mind, that is saying that its not what it seems or that it's folk-theoretic and to be reduced to brain states is one way of not dealing with many hard issues.

If we take in account universe "absolute" doesn't take chances and having every possible choice played out (multiverse theory), objectivity can help us in what we experience, if every does have to be determined and every choice is played out and we are "agents" to report and experience the universe then objectivity can help us stay on better scale of universe where things are "better", but that is also questionable in this universe since everything is of balance and for every action there is opposite

professional opinion? do the fuck you want till you can because god help the fucker who created this whole thing, the shier complexity of it is beyond anyones understanding in the universe

If you say everything is predetermined you have to say by whom or what. If there is no God (for want of a better term) to design and make a plan, and to know how it will work out, and to have decided that we mortals are simply pawns he is manipulating within the plan; then the term is meaningless. 'Predetermined' implies the existance of a plan which is known or recorded somewhere, so that in theory we could access that plan. Possibly the plan only exists in God's brain, but he could still print it out for us if he had a mind to!
Personally I think objectivity for any partially aware being like us is impossible regardless of whether the universe is predetermined.

Prediterminable. Just not by anything imaginable. We don't have free will but we do all have our very own mind, so it might as well be free will. I never felt like I had it in the first place.

Free will is the will to be responsible and nothing more, and any discussion about free will speaks only about one thing - nothing. is even a matter of different terminologies, but of language and its boundaries and the banal misunderstanding that will is a conventional concept.

How is everyone correct in a determined universe? Why can't there still be truths and falsehoods?

How is everyone correct in a determined universe? Why can't there still be truths and falsehoods? — noname

How can there be a Truth when everything is Determined. You can only have someone uttering that something is true. There is NO independent discovery of anything. It's all just billiard balls colliding into each other and making sounds.

That's a profoundly muddled post.

So it's true that the universe is determined, and that hence there can be no truths.

Do you desire a coherent understanding? If so, then you must see that there is something astray int eh way your have set out this problem.

If you do not desire a coherent understanding, then there is no point in our talking to you, since for you anything goes.

That's a profoundly muddled post. — Banno

In a deterministic context, it was been determined that you said that and I wrote this. Shrug. Just utterances with no meaning or purpose. I can only dispute you, if it was determined. What ever will be, will be.

...so that's the latter; you do not wish to find a coherent account, and will settle for a contradiction: the universe is determined, and that hence there can be no truths.

That tells us about you, not about the universe.

That tells us about you, not about the universe. — Banno

The Universe is what it is. It is me making sounds and you making sounds. Just shuffling along.

The Universe is what it is. It is me making sounds and you making sounds. Just shuffling along on the block time. — MondoR

OK, so it it true that: The Universe is what it is. It is me making sounds and you making sounds. Just shuffling along on the block time.

Hence, there are true statements.

Hence, there are true statements — Banno

In a deterministic context, just utterances. Only someone believing in a non-deterministic thinking (i.e. insights) might be able to put more value into utterances. In this case, there is truly independent exploration, observation, and insights. To put it another way, there is no meaning to life unless one allows for it.

Hence it is true that in a deterministic context, these are just utterances.

And it follows that there are truths.

And it follows that there are truths. — Banno

As a determined utterance. It's all equal.
Determinism is quite egalitarian, bless its soul.

How would an undetermined universe change your concern? Wouldn't statements still be utterances and so on?

How would an undetermined universe change your concern? Wouldn't statements still be utterances and so on? — noname

There is room for independent exploration, discovery, insights, and communication emanating from the individual mind. Nothing is determined. Disagreement and agreement is meaningful.

I read your thread introduction now and I am not convinced about your basis, 'Everything is as it is determined to be'. This seems too simplified, and on what basis is that determined? I think that needs to be explored more, before you go on to the wider exploration of objective truth.

Why can't that happen in a determined universe?

I read your thread introduction now and I am not convinced about your basis, 'Everything is as it is determined to be'. This seems too simplified, and on what basis is that determined? I think that needs to be explored more, before you go on to the wider exploration of objective truth. — Jack Cummins

If you believe there is meaning to the notion of exploration, then yes. But the moment you apply meaning to exploration, you have disowned determinism.

As a determined utterance. It's all equal. — MondoR

But (It's true that the universe is determined) is not equal to (It's not true that the universe is determined)...

So it's not all equal...

Why can't that happen in a determined universe? — noname

Everything that happens has been determined to happen. It is the meaningfulness that comes into a
question. You say something. I say something. All is determined. All is equal. You believe it is more than equal. It's determined that you believe it is more than equal. And so it goes.

But surely owning or disowning determinism, or any other system only makes sense in the context of any particular framework of meanings.

So it's not all equal... — Banno

That's the beauty of determinism. It doesn't matter. The dominos keep falling as we all await the next utterances with bated breath. It's thrilling.