Those pesky individual rights. If only we could do away with those, the world would surely be a better place. — Tzeentch

In the context of this conversation, that could be taken two ways. Are you talking about the individual right to not get a vaccine, or the individual right to not deal with someone who doesn't get the vaccine? As far as I know, no one is violating either.

Aren't you suggesting individuals should be pressured out of exercising their right to bodily integrity?

Aren't you suggesting individuals should be pressured out of exercising their right to bodily integrity? — Tzeentch

It's not a matter of "should." It's a function of nature, Darwin, society. Why, just recently I was told that if someone did not abide the rules of chess, there would be no game of chess. One could leave the board, I suppose (that was my argument). They might even find new and better rules. Go for it. But I also think of the lone wolf. As much as we like the idea of them, rarely, rarely, do they find their own territory where they won't be eaten.

And I also want to address your use of the word "pressured." No one is forcing. It's only perceived as pressure if the person want's something they have no right to. The anti-vaxer has no right to receive goods or services from the private sector. Nor does he have a right to have the government step in on his behalf. Driving a car is a privilege, not a right. You can be compelled to get a license if you chose to move that way. Otherwise, you are free to walk.

I think Ronald Regan was full of shit when he opined that government was the problem. I think government can be a problem. But I've seen a lack of government before and it's not pretty. — James Riley

I am sure RR was full of shit on many subjects, but on this one he was 100% correct. Government is the only institution that has the power to do truly horrific things...aptly demonstrated last century.

Although you need government to rein-in the lunatic fringe, you don't need much more. It's like your significant other, too little/too much [fill in the blank] and it doesn't work.

I think it is what you are suggesting, but you seem aware that it is quite an untenable position to hold, thus the old semantic smokescreen is deployed.

Government is the only institution that has the power to do truly horrific things...aptly demonstrated last century. — synthesis

Stipulating, for the sake of argument, that it is the only institution capable of truly horrific things does not mean it is not capable of truly great things which the private sector cannot do. Indeed, it was government that destroyed the governments that brought the bad things, aptly demonstrated last century. RR was full of shit on the contested point. Wait, check that. I was wrong. Government was the problem for Hitler, Mussolini, Tojo, et al. So yeah, I guess you are right. RR was right. I was wrong.

I think it is what you are suggesting, but you seem aware that it is quite an untenable position to hold, thus the old semantic smokescreen is deployed. — Tzeentch

It's not a semantical hair being parsed, nor is it "suggesting." It is an argument that so far stands un-rebutted.

One problem which I see with the vaccine in England is that having had it or not is being planned as a whole basis for reorganisation of life as we know it. Boris Johnson, who initially said it would never be used in this way, is planning to introduce vaccine passports, as a whole basis for allowing people to access cafes, pubs and many aspects of public life.

Many people are in disagreement but I am sure that Boris will force it through. He says that people who have not had the vaccine can show positive tests. However, the whole idea is using vaccine passports on phones is going to set up inequalities and exclusion. For example, not every person has a smartphone, so it may be that certain people are excluded from pubs, cafes and other social places, putting them into indefinite lockdown and isolation. Also, it paves the way for loss of privacy of personal and medical information. So, the vaccine comes with a whole hidden agenda and agenda which goes far beyond Covid_19.

There is not only Astra Zeneca, there are more vaccines... — javi2541997

Then you're probably definitely in Bill Gates territory. Unless you're taking the Russian one?

I can't imagine it would be hard to forge one. My local health department was just giving out cards and they let recipients fill them in.

Then you're probably definitely in Bill Gates territory. Unless you're taking the Russian one? — frank

Spain is developing one vaccine but sadly it is slower than the rest because our authorities don’t invest that much as other countries...

I can't imagine it would be hard to forge one. My local health department was just giving out cards and they let recipients fill them in. — frank

How do you put the little "100%" emoji in a post?

I got stabbed April Fools day and they gave me a little card saying it was J&J. I had to fill out the rest. I also did not give them a driver's license or any such ID. I did give them a Colorado Health card, but it really doesn't have any ID on it and I could have picked it up from some else. I thought "Damn! This is a poor way for Bill to slap a brand on his cattle." Maybe they got me with the facial rec coming in? But now that the chip is in me, it's too late too speculate on such things.

I believe that it is going to all be done on phones with scanned in data, and barcoded information, to prevent forgery. One outcome which I can see is a dramatic increase in phone theft.

:100: Click the smiley face on the top right.

I disagree, entirely.

Hopefully no one is forcing you to associate with assholes. I would argue, though, that throughout history, the inquisitors were the assholes and those they cancelled were victims. Cancel culture is a lighter form of bullying than the abject cruelty of mob violence, sure, but it is eerily reminiscent. It’s much better to defend human rights for everyone, especially for views we dislike, than to pick and choose who gets them.

Anyways, I don’t want to derail Frank’s thread.

I live in the US and I won't take any Covid-19 vaccine until there is a version which receives APPROVAL from the FDA. Wearing a mask, social distancing, frequent hand washing, etc will have to (and do) suffice in significantly slowing the spread of the contagion until then. I keep up as best as I'm able with updated studies published on various public health and research university websites trying to sift through the jet engine roar of political noise for scientifically reliable signals.

That said, I support businesses and state policies which decline services to, effectively discriminate against, people who refuse to wear masks or do not get vaccinated. Freedoms entail responsibilities and their exercise has consequences. I accept that, and others should stop being infantile hysterics (& entitled whiny bitches) and do likewise. :mask:

Hopefully no one is forcing you to associate with assholes. — NOS4A2

No one is forcing me to associate with assholes. Yet I do it all the time every time I step outside and get on the road. It's part of life. Likewise, no one is forcing anyone to get a vaccine. I loose business and money by not engaging with anti-vaxers. They lose my widget or my service. Everyone still has freedom of choice.

Maybe they can patronize anti-vaxers that sell widgets or services like mine? Freedom is a wonderful thing, but it cuts both ways. If Uncle Sugar want to create a passport to aid me in my vetting process, like I said, it is based upon privilege and not right. Now, if government creates a passport to speak, or publish, or carry a gun, then it has ventured into the realm of rights. I've got a real problem with that. Nevertheless, I see it happening. If I were to get upset about anything, it would be the area of rights, not personal decision-making. Rights are not unlimited, I know, but not dealing with an anti-vaxer has not even touched on the area of rights.

There is a world of difference between inquisitors and the freedom to not associate.

I had covid and I didn't like it, so now I have had the suspect astra vaccine and I'm going back for more of whatever's on offer as soon as maybe.

Public health has always trumped individual rights since the days of lepers being made outcasts. And when Ebola comes to your neighbourhood, you will be imposing quarantine yourselves at gunpoint or at whatever other point you have available.

Again, how does one insert that "100%" emoji? I agree with you 100%.

Thanks. :100:

:100:

I live in the US and I won't take any Covid-19 vaccine until there is a version which receives APPROVAL from the FDA. — 180 Proof

I took the Pfizer vaccine in December even though I was a little freaked out by the technology. But I work in ICU, so I had a good reason.

And when Ebola comes to your neighbourhood, you will be imposing quarantine yourselves at gunpoint or at whatever other point you have available. — unenlightened

Or you could just lock your door. Why is violence the default mode of thinking?

Or you could just lock your door. Why is violence the default mode of thinking? — Tzeentch

How many months supplies do you have stored behind that door? and how strong is it? There are going to be some frightened desperate people coming down the road.

I don't really worry about those things.

Or you could just lock your door. Why is violence the default mode of thinking? — Tzeentch

That is a good question. I believe the answer is this: Were I to just lock the door and stay inside, I would be the one who's right/freedom to interstate or other travel would have been denied, if only by my lack of courage to go outside and mingle with the sick. Society, in defense of my right to travel, will limit the right of others (the diseased) to travel. Where society fails to step up, and we are all left to our own devices, some carry disease, I carry a gun. Like the zombie apocalypse, we shoot zombies. Zombies have forfeited their right to life.

:up:

:mask: :cheer:

I don't know, I think it's good? Not an anti-vaxxer, but just not sure if I want to.

I think I had Covid in November of last year. I was with a friend who did test positive.We spent a raucous, drink-sharing, bowl-passing weekend and at the end, while we were lazily recovering, he got a call from a friend who'd tested positive. He (my friend) then went to get a test, and tested positive himself. Figuring the mutual damage was done, we decided he'd quarantine at my apartment instead of going back to his place and putting at risk his roommates He stayed for two weeks, we both got sore and fatigued and coughy, it slowly faded, and at the end everything was normal.

Part of me feels like I don't want to go through the rigamarole (and without insurance too) of getting a vaccine, but I also am synced up with enough people who would probably want me to before hanging out, and I have a wedding coming up in June. Long story short, I just don't know. I'm a strange, marginal person; If i was more in the thick of things, it'd be a no-brainer. Everything is happening so fast, though - I do have a rock-in-my-shoe suspicion of any expedited science. Nothing deeply principled, just a constant discomfort and unease.

I'll probably get it.

and without insurance too — csalisbury

It's free.

It's free. — James Riley

I don't have much of an excuse then. Probably should have learned that already, but learned now, I'll most probably get it. I think I broadly feel the same way as @180 Proof I'm in a hibernation period and at very little risk for infecting others (I'm not too worried about being infected myself.) I wear a mask when I get groceries, and put one on when I pass people walking. But, I mean, I got that wedding coming up. I guess it's inevitable I'll get vaccinated.