You shall not make for yourself an image — Agustino

How do you read this?

The prohibition of worshipping another god is a way of insisting on loyalty to the tribe. Different tribes had different gods and, according to the book, the Hebrews were bent on conquering other tribes in the region. Worshipping a god of one of those tribes would be seen as a pathway towards sympathising with them, and hence doubting the fairness of killing them to take their land. So it makes sense for the authorities to ban it.

The second one is a clever strategy to make their own totem seem superior to, and less vulnerable than, those of other tribes and hence to further enhance patriotism. It is easy to mock a god with an image by defacing its statue, dressing it up in silly clothes, jeering at it, or even just smashing it. If the god has no statue, one cannot do that.

I think if you were to sort through the old testament, the question of what is an idol is pretty clearly defined as an actual graven image, and there are plenty of passages that reference the corruptibility of the actual idol and explain why it cannot be as powerful as God. I don't want to turn this into a theological discussion and start citing passages, but I think if you limited the question to what the god of the old testament was forbidding, it would be actual carvings and such.

Of course, few limit their reading of the bible to the literal, and the question of idolatry then becomes a far more interesting topic. Even in a non-religious context, a prohibition against idol worship would make sense. The worship of money, success, fame, admiration, etc. would all be idol worship because it seeks something other than that which ought be worshiped. In a religious context that which ought be worshipped is the true god who is actually God, but in a non-religious context, god might be service to others, compassion, or other such things.

So, idol worship is to pray to that which is not most holy, and what is most holy I suppose can be debated. I would say, though, that someone who accepts the concept of the holy and the sacred, even should they apply it in a non-religious way, will present and behave as do the religious because it is doubtful that a thinking person would find holiness in the mundane.

And that takes us to the first commandment, which is whatever it is that you hold to be the most sacred is the only thing you are to consider god. I do think 1 and 2 are wrapped up together. Again, though, if you read the Old Testament literally, you may not accept this interpretation because in Exodus, as you may recall, the Egyptians received the 10 plagues as proof of the supremacy of God (Yahweh) as being more powerful than the Egyptian gods. That is, it is clear there were many gods, it's just that the God of Israel was the strongest and for that reason God (Yahweh) was to be accepted as the baddest of all the gods. Again, though, I don't think the literal interpretations yield as meaningful results as the interpretative.

I'm not your Biblical scholar, but It looks to me as though you aren't looking for that.

So from first principles ...

Everyone must put something at the centre of their life as the most important; God, money, social status, pleasure, power, love, themselves, science, ... something. That thing is what one worships, whether one is in a church, a mosque, a temple, a laboratory, or the hypermarket.

An idol is a worldly thing, as distinct from an ideal. In this scheme, there are no atheists, only self-made men who worship their maker.

How do you read this? — Heister Eggcart

What is an image? And what is a non-image?

It is easy to mock a god with an image by defacing its statue, dressing it up in silly clothes, jeering at it, or even just smashing it. — andrewk

Consider that I give a ring to my wife-to-be. What does that mean?

If you smash it, what have you smashed and what have you not smashed?

would all be idol worship because it seeks something other than that which ought be worshiped — Hanover

Why "ought" something to be worshipped? And what does it mean to worship something?

it is doubtful that a thinking person would find holiness in the mundane. — Hanover

What is holiness found in then? Why is it that we call an icon holy?

Everyone must put something at the centre of their life as the most important; God, money, social status, pleasure, power, love, themselves, science, ... something. That thing is what one worships, whether one is in a church, a mosque, a temple, a laboratory, or the hypermarket. — unenlightened

What does it mean to put something at the center of your life? How do you go about doing that? What is it really?

An idol is a worldly thing, as distinct from an ideal. — unenlightened

Consider the situation I have asked andrewk to consider. If I give a ring to my wife-to-be, have I given her a worldly thing? What distinguishes the worldly thing from the non-worldly?

What does it mean to put something at the center of your life? — Agustino

It means your life is about something.

Consider the situation I have asked andrewk to consider. If I give a ring to my wife-to-be, have I given her a worldly thing? What distinguishes the worldly thing from the ideal? — Agustino

What is important here, your giving, the ring itself or your wife? And are any of these the centre of your life? Is your life about a ring? Is it, in the end, about your wife? If it is, you are worshipping an idol.

It means your life is about something. — unenlightened

This is an abstraction. What is it concretely? How is my life, concretely, about something? What makes it about something instead of about something else?

What is important here, your giving, the ring itself or your wife? — unenlightened

Neither of the three, but the first comes closest.

Is it, in the end, about your wife? If it is, you are worshipping an idol. — unenlightened

Why would that be so? What makes my wife an idol? Or better said, what would make her an idol?

And please try to actually answer my questions. So let's go back to these as well:

If I give a ring to my wife-to-be, have I given her a worldly thing? What distinguishes the worldly thing from the non-worldly? — Agustino

What is an image? And what is a non-image? — Agustino

If interpreted in the Jewish tradition, I'd agree with the earlier posters about what it means. But in the Christian sense, I think that it's a lesson in avoiding the mistake of making one's own flesh an idol, a graven image, that which is worshiped. Theologically speaking, we are created in the image of the God of Love, not in the image of our fallen and sinful selves.

Theologically speaking, we are created in the image of the God of Love — Heister Eggcart

Right! Right! We are created in the image of God. What does a painting of Mount Everest point to? And is the painting of Mount Everest one with Mount Everest?

Are you testing me or something? >:O I'm prolly the only one here who will agree with you in this thread. Respect your allies more, pls

Are you testing me or something? >:O I'm prolly the only one here who will agree with you in this thread. Respect your allies more, pls — Heister Eggcart

No, not at all. I'm trying to see where your thinking moves. Would you agree that if man is created in the image of God, then man's self always points beyond itself?

What is an image? And what is a non-image? — Agustino

An image, or idol, is a material object taken to be a representation of the immaterial God. You are not supposed to worship the material object, you are supposed to worship the immaterial God. Therefore there is no purpose in making such an image. It was for the same reason that many insisted God should not have a name. The name being a representation, or image of God. If God has a name, then we may start to worship the name, and forget about God. This is important because it is how we affirm that we all worship the same God. If we worship an idol, or image, then different groups start to worship different idols and therefore different gods. Then no one pays attention to God.

An image, or idol, is a material object taken to be a representation of the immaterial God — Metaphysician Undercover

Is an icon an idol?

No because an icon is not made to represent God.

No because an icon is not made to represent God. — Metaphysician Undercover

What is an icon?

An image, or idol, is a material object taken to be a representation of the immaterial God. — Metaphysician Undercover

Can an idea not be an idol? The Communist society...

No, not at all. I'm trying to see where your thinking moves. Would you agree that if man is created in the image of God, then man's self always points beyond itself? — Agustino

Hmm. The tricky business here is that "pointing beyond the self" actually entails gazing further within oneself, but in an attempt to see God more fully, rather than our own nature, which is only represented just the same outside of our bodies in the world.

This is an abstraction. What is it concretely? How is my life, concretely, about something? What makes it about something instead of about something else? — Agustino

I don't know what your life is about. It is for you to say what is the most important thing to you. For me it is love - which is not to say that I am loving or lovely, but that is what it is about; that is where I stand, and where I am trying to go. And it is an abstraction, to the extent that I fail to make it real in my life.

Is it, in the end, about your wife? If it is, you are worshipping an idol.
— unenlightened
Why would that be so? What makes my wife an idol? Or better said, what would make her an idol? — Agustino

One makes an idol by giving central importance to, by worshipping, something that is not worthy of that place in life.

If I give a ring to my wife-to-be, have I given her a worldly thing? — Agustino

Yes, obviously.

What distinguishes the worldly thing from the non-worldly? — Agustino

Take justice as an unworldly example. It is not a natural condition, but is only brought into being by a just man. I don't think I can make the unworldly concrete, except in so far as I can show you a life lived.

The tricky business here is that "pointing beyond the self" actually entails gazing further within oneself, but in an attempt to see God more fully, rather than our own nature, which is only represented just the same outside of our bodies in the world. — Heister Eggcart

So Heister, in what sense are you gazing further within yourself - trying to see God more fully - rather than your own nature? Is there something within you that is not your nature? Is there something in you that is beyond your self?

Find truth in yourself and you've found truth in the rest of the world.

I don't know what your life is about. It is for you to say what is the most important thing to you. For me it is love - which is not to say that I am loving or lovely, but that is what it is about; that is where I stand, and where I am trying to go. And it is an abstraction, to the extent that I fail to make it real in my life. — unenlightened

So that is still an abstraction. I'm asking you practically, for you, what does it mean that your life is about love? What makes your life about love? If I look at your life, what in it makes me think "this is about love"?

Yes, obviously. — unenlightened

Obvious enough it is, but has something slipped unnoticed? When I have given her the ring, was it just the ring that was given?

Take justice as an unworldly example. It is not a natural condition, but is only brought into being by a just man. I don't think I can make the unworldly concrete, except in so far as I can show you a life lived. — unenlightened

Would love also be an unworldly example?

Find truth in yourself and you've found truth in the rest of the world. — Heister Eggcart

Clarify this - how does one find truth in themselves?

Consider by analogy - when one watches pornography, it seems that the images that one sees point beyond themselves. Someone watching porn isn't ultimately watching themselves. But, do they control the images? Can they stop the images? Can they choose the images that they want? And in choosing them, are they ultimately thrown back upon themselves? How does this compare with your wife? Do you control your wife? Do you control what sounds she makes, when she smiles, when she's happy? In having sex with your wife (for example), are you pointing out of yourself - encountering someone that is other than you - and therefore reaching out of your own self?

Clarify this - how does one find truth in themselves? — Agustino

Love is the truth and it is in me - but unless it can reflect itself in the world, it is dead O:)

Consider by analogy - when one watches pornography, it seems that the images that one sees point beyond themselves. Someone watching porn isn't ultimately watching themselves. But, do they control the images? Can they stop the images? Can they choose the images that they want? And in choosing them, are they ultimately thrown back upon themselves? How does this compare with your wife? Do you control your wife? Do you control what sounds she makes, when she smiles, when she's happy? In having sex with your wife, are you pointing out of yourself - encountering someone that is other than you - and therefore reaching out of your own self? — Agustino

wat

This is more unintelligible than the poetic drivel I just wrote above, >:O

Love is the truth and it is in me - but unless it can reflect itself in the world, it is dead — Heister Eggcart

Is all of it in you? Or is your asceticism a way to reach out of yourself? Is Love greater than you or equal to you?

Is all of it in you? — Agustino

No.

Or is your asceticism a way to reach out of yourself? — Agustino

For my love to be given, yes.

Is Love greater than you or equal to you? — Agustino

Greater, of course.

I don't think there is a "how." Truth is found in oneself because they are always the person who knows. Eliminating oneself is always an illusion. One may care for others obviously, rather than some other goal or desire, but it is always them doing the caring. The destruction of the self amounts to an abstraction. One cannot tell whether they love giving, their wife, a ring or themselves precisely because such a question treats life as an abstraction.

Would you give the wedding ring to anyone but your wife? I mean could you stand to propose and give the ring to any stranger in the street? What about handing the ring over to someone else, giving them the decision about what to do with it in reference to your marriage and relationship (as close as we can get to eliminating yourself for the situation)? Would you choose to propose and not give the ring (and yourself) to your partner? Or just not get a ring at all? All these are clearly unacceptable. Do any of them, and you could fail by your own measure. The state itself is what matters. Giving, wife, ring and themselves in that particular situation.

The abstraction of "how" or "why" you love is just a dishonest reduction to particular concepts or images, where the lived well-being is reduced to some idea, standard or authority. Whether we are talking about gods, relationships, appearance, possessions, culture, self or just about anything, it is this abstraction which amounts to idolatry.

No. — Heister Eggcart

Greater, of course. — Heister Eggcart

For my love to be given, yes. — Heister Eggcart

Ok. So if Love is greater than you, it is not completely contained by you - it always exceeds you. And in order to know it, and be closer to it - you have to reach out of the prison of your self. So man is created in the image of God - destined to reach out of their own self - to point towards God.

To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ — Luke 18:9-13

Who is the Pharisee really praying to? And who is the tax collector praying to?

If one who lives in a Christian culture goes up to God’s house, the house of the true God, with a true conception of God, with knowledge of God and prays—but prays in a false spirit; and one who lives in a idolatrous land prays with the total passion of the infinite, although his eyes rest on the image of an idol; where is there most truth? The one prays in truth to God, although he worships an idol. The other prays in untruth to the true God and therefore really worships an idol — Soren Kierkegaard

Why is the Christian, in the house of the true God, with a true conception and knowledge of God praying to an idol, while the one kneeling before the statue of the false God is praying in truth to the real God? What is the relationship between the object in front of which one prays and idolatry?

The abstraction of "how" or "why" you love is just a dishonest reduction to particular concepts or images, where the lived well-being is reduced to some idea, standard or authority. — TheWillowOfDarkness

Why is this a problem? Why can't the lived well-being be reduced to some conception?

Ok. So if Love is greater than you, it is not completely contained by you - it always exceeds you. And in order to know it, and be closer to it - you have to reach out of the prison of your self. So man is created in the image of God - destined to reach out of their own self - to point towards God. — Agustino

Love is the governor of the world. I wouldn't say that it transcends the world like any concept of God.