Does anybody see anything on the horizon that might indicate a reversal this incredibly disturbing trend? — synthesis

Antinatalism. One less kid born is one less dependent. Peace.

(a great American tragedy). — synthesis

Good novel. I remember read it in a big book called “grandes maestros americanos” (Great American Masters)

Antinatalism. One less kid born is one less dependent. Peace. — schopenhauer1

Yes. This is the principle which the future should hold. Less natality less problems. Less humans less conflicts in the world. Scientists say my country will lost 10 million citizens in the next decades because the lack of natality. What a good notice.

Hey, theres some good news! We should all walk hand-in-hand to collectively decide to end this for the next generation. Why is nothingness so reviled? Nothing did nothing to no one. But somehow the fawning over producing stuff and the mythos of the abstract cause of happiness, or some religious sentiment, keeps the dismal fray and suffering going.

Because our educational system is flawed. They do not teach us how to get happiness and self-confidence. It looks like we are forced to live with others. I guess it is just a trap. We can work hand by hand but there are a lot of people who actually wants to have kids because their lives are somehow empty.
Having kinds nowadays is quite selfish

Here is where people will give a litany of why people need to be born to experience life: virtue(wtf?), pleasure, art, music, aesthetics, cause god wants it, cause people just "need" to exist so they can pursue goals and find meaning through struggle, to fill role of X thing, to produce more stuff, technology,laughter, etcetc.

Unless one can achieve financial independence and intellectual autonomy, individuals will always be controlled (from without) resulting in the loss of essential freedoms (a great American tragedy). — synthesis

It's an odd time to be asking this question. My son, who is very independent, is living at home now because he lost his job and career to the pandemic. He's gone back to school. A lot of other people are in the same situation now. The fact that they have families who can help out is a great thing. That's what families are for.

Does anybody see anything on the horizon that might indicate a reversal this incredibly disturbing trend? — synthesis

I don't see it as disturbing at all.

Antinatalism. One less kid born is one less dependent. Peace. — schopenhauer1

In another post, we were discussing the aphorism "To a hammer, everything looks like a nail." I guess we could retread that as "To an anti-natalist, every problem looks like reproduction."

Here is where people will gove a litany of why people need to be born to experience life: virtue(wtf?), pleasure, art, music, aesthetics, cause god wants it, cause people just "need" to exist so they can pursue goals and find meaning through struggle, to fill role of X thing, to produce more stuff, technology,laughter, etcetc. — schopenhauer1

As usual, you are shanghaiing someone else's thread to propound your.... unpopular theories.

It's an odd time to be asking this question. My son, who is very independent, is living at home now because he lost his job and career to the pandemic. He's gone back to school. A lot of other people are in the same situation now. The fact that they have families who can help out is a great thing. That's what families are for. — T Clark

It is a problem if one is not lucky enough to have families. It is an indication that opportunities to begin a life of your own are dwindling, that means those in a loving family might be the least of our worries. People without families lose their jobs to the pandemic too.

Contra synthesis I would say that a welfare state is necessary to reduce independence on the family. I also do not see the reference to 'a great american tragedy', isn't the loss of freedom a tragedy everywhere? Aristotle already knew you need some financial independence in order to be free.

It is a problem if one is not lucky enough to have families. It is an indication that opportunities to begin a life of your own are dwindling, — Tobias

I don't disagree with this, but the phenomenon @synthesis is describing is not relevant to many people living at home right now. They're home, not because they have any problem being independent, but because their lives have fallen apart because of the pandemic. As I've said, that's what families are for.

If its actually the root of the problem then yeah.

Still an answer.

That's the fruit of nominalism. That's what happens when you reject natural law, natural hierarchy and natural authority. Let the dupes, dopes and rubes run the country instead of philosopher-kings.

I don't disagree with this, but the phenomenon synthesis is describing is not relevant to many people living at home right now. They're home, not because they have any problem being independent, but because their lives have fallen apart because of the pandemic. As I've said, that's what families are for. — T Clark

Sure and I understand that. There is something inherently problematic about the situation though. It means the familial structure is getting more important as a necessary safeguard, which will also keep people from straying from the family too much, lest they become estranged. So even before they will venture out, they know that they should 'behave'. To that extent I agree with synthesis. It fosters dependence, which was actually exactly the agenda of the rather conservative governments that have ruled the US and Europe since the 1980s. The ideals of discovery prevalent in the seventies have given away to traditionalism. That is not your fault T Clark, I am not targeting you, you indeed do what a loving father does and your children are the better for it, but a social trend that I am discerning.

que?

The United States of Nominalism. The United States was founded by people like Thomas Jefferson, who was a British Empiricist. This is not a secret. And Benjamin Franklin who was an open Satanist. This is just obvious to anyone who reads.

That is not your fault T Clark, I am not targeting you, you indeed do what a loving father does and your children are the better for it, but a social trend that I am discerning. — Tobias

I think I understand what @synthesis was trying to say. As I wrote, I don't see it as a problem, even if we discount any problems caused by the pandemic.

The United States of Nominalism. The United States was founded by people like Thomas Jefferson, who was a British Empiricist. This is not a secret. And Benjamin Franklin who was an open Satanist. This is just obvious to anyone who reads. — Dharmi

Interesting how you toss British empiricism and satanism into the same boat.... lol. But even if it is true, so what and what does it say about the problem of freedom and family?

It just happens to be true, but that wasn't to associate British Empiricism with Satanism.

so what and what does it say about the problem of freedom and family? — Tobias

You cannot have freedom and nominalism. If nominalism is the predominant worldview, the only ones who have "freedom" is the money power. If nominalism is the predominant worldview, then family is impossible. There are only atomistic individuals, no community, no tribe, no family, no society.

The opposite can also be true, if you have only universals you cannot have freedom. By the way freedom is a universal. I do not think metaphysical theories have so much influence. No one is a pure nominalist. And what Benjamin Franklin believes... I have no idea why that is relevant.

Unless one can achieve financial independence and intellectual autonomy, individuals will always be controlled (from without) resulting in the loss of essential freedoms (a great American tragedy). — synthesis

Yep, which is why capitalism needs to be abolished, as that is what keeps so many from attaining financial independence.

The demise of the extended family removed the capacity for caring from adults, necessitating that it be invested in social institutions such as schools and nursing homes. But it did not remove the responsibility. When those social institutions go underfunded, that responsibility leads to an overloading of the family, and hence for families to be effective.

The result is apparent in Australia, in an aged care system that was set up to be inadequately funded by the Howard government and is now utterly dysfunctional; in schools that cannot effectively teach students, because they are obliged to solve an ever-growing list of social issues; and will be repeated as the present conservative government looks for ways to defund the NDIS.

It's not capitalism that is at fault. It's simply lack of equity in the distribution of wealth.

It's not capitalism that is at fault. It's simply lack of equity in the distribution of wealth. — Banno

That's precisely what capitalism is. Wealth is capital, and capitalism is when capital is held entirely by a small class of people, making the rest subservient to them. If wealth was equitably distributed -- and somehow stably so, so it doesn't just collapse back into few hands immediately -- that would be socialism, the ownership of capital by the people generally rather than a small elite class.

Just as there is a separation of church and state, there might be a separation of wealth and state. A few billionaires who had no more say in government than you and I would not be a problem.

But that isn't going to happen.

A few billionaires who had no more say in government than you and I would not be a problem. — Banno

Unless the billions of dollars of capital they owned were our homes and businesses, making us all de facto subservient to them if we want access to the things we need to survive, even if they don't have any de jure authority over us.

...so do as the Good Book says, and criminalise usury.

I'd reckon COVID plays a role, and I'd be interested to see how the statistics compare before/after. In any case, nothing wrong with being out of work and receiving bennies today due to the pandemic. If the economy is basically shut down and everyone's been afraid to leave their homes for the past year I don't see the harm in young people moving back with their parents for the time being as long as this trend reverses when COVID rates drop off.

In another post, we were discussing the aphorism "To a hammer, everything looks like a nail." I guess we could retread that as "To an anti-natalist, every problem looks like reproduction." — T Clark

Nice. And this could be used for any number of beliefs...

It's not capitalism that is at fault. It's simply lack of equity in the distribution of wealth. — Banno

It's the version of corporate capitalism.

That's what I said.