What would it mean to say that aspects of experience are illusory? Just that they are not what we think they are, no? Are we liable to think of them as substantive? — Janus

That is the question. It seems most of us agree there are conscious experiences which include colors, sounds, pains, etc. But what does that amount to? We can reject qualia talk, but we're still left with the conscious sensations, which are not easily accounted for by some objective account.

When someone refuses to agree that all conscious experience of seeing red cups includes red cups, there's not much more that can be said is there?

:meh:

No description(s) of any specific experience is equal to having the experience(whatever it may be). No two specific kinds of experiences are exactly alike in every way, even if we're talking about the same creature seeing a red cup on multiple occasions.

How do we arrive at the need for "qualia" from here? Is the notion just being used in a sort of closeted subjectivism stance?

When someone refuses to agree that all conscious experience of seeing red cups includes red cups, there's not much more that can be said is there? — creativesoul

Illusions, hallucinations and red not being a property of the cup itself leaves some room for saying otherwhise.

Rubbish. Illusions and hallucinations of seeing red cups are not conscious experience of seeing red cups.

...

But they are visual conscious experiences containing a red cup image.

They are not an example of what we're talking about. We're talking about conscious experience of seeing red cups.

What do you think about the three kinds of conscious experience I set out in the last few pages?

it's the proponents of "qualia" who set it, t
— creativesoul
Dennett set up this strawman all by himself. You are not paying attention.

Personally I would rather obliterate any and all philosophical notions that lead to widespread confusion and false belief given the sheer power that belief wields in this shared world of ours.
— creativesoul
You are welcome to obliterate your own concepts, and not use certain words.

Personally, I treat words as tools. I need tools to do stuff, and I am not going to jettison a concept without a good replacement. So what other concept do you propose, to replace qualia? — Olivier5

This presupposes that there is a need to replace the notion of 'qualia'. What is it taking proper adequate account of that some other language game does not already do a much better job of?

What do you think about the three kinds of conscious experience I set out recently?

The term qualia seems to be useful in philosophy of mind discussions to pick out or emphasise the subjective, phenomenal aspects of experience. — Luke

By all means, I wish someone would at least offer some sort of explanation for using these words. If it's useful for picking out or emphasizing the subjective, phenomenal aspects of experience, then surely one of the proponents would utilize the tool by doing so.

Which aspects exactly?

We all know what red cups look like. We know that each and every experience of seeing a red cup always involves seeing red cups. It only follows that we do sometimes know what others are experiencing when seeing a red cup for we know that the experience - most definitely - includes red cups. — creativesoul

You might know how red objects appear to you (or what red objects “look like” to you), but how do you know how red objects appear to other people? How can you know that red objects appear the same (colour) to everyone?

Are you saying that not all conscious experience of seeing red cups includes red cups?

,

You might know how red objects appear to you (or what red objects “look like” to you), but how do you know how red objects appear to other people? — Luke

Red, I would think.

How can you know that red objects appear the same (colour) to everyone?

Has something to do with certain frequencies of visible light spectrum being picking out.

Does that appear red to you?

Yep.

Cool.

Red, I would think. — creativesoul

You’re not certain? You said that “we do sometimes know what others are experiencing when seeing a red cup”. How do you know that what I experience (colour-wise) when I see a red cup is the same as what you experience (colour-wise) when you see a red cup?

Has something to do with the visible light spectrum that they're picking out. — creativesoul

What is this “something “?

Does that appear red to you?

Yep.

Cool. — creativesoul

“Since we both learned color words by being shown public colored objects, our verbal behavior will match even if we experience entirely different subjective colors.”

How do you know that what I experience (colour-wise) when I see a red cup is the same as what you experience (colour-wise) when you see a red cup? — Luke

I do not. Nor need I.

How can you know that red objects appear the same (colour) to everyone?

Has something to do with certain frequencies of visible light spectrum being picking out. — creativesoul

Yeah, its weird how everyone always picks out the red ones. I'm fairly certain that that's because those frequencies appear exactly like those frequencies each and every time someone is picking out red cups...

“Since we both learned color words by being shown public colored objects, our verbal behavior will match even if we experience entirely different subjective colors.” — Luke

Those entirely different subjective colors are always like the little man who wasn't there. They're quite clearly not entirely different. We all pick out the red ones.

"Public colored" is an odd turn of phrase...

:brow:

Yeah, its weird how everyone always picks out the red ones. I'm fairly certain that that's because those frequencies appear exactly like those frequencies each and every time someone is picking out red cups... — creativesoul

You're certain that everyone will pick out the same shade of red?



Is the apple candy or rose colored?

Since we both learned color words by being shown public colored objects, our verbal behavior will match even if we experience entirely different subjective colors.” — Luke

We'll all pick out the frequencies that appear to us all individually over and over again, time and time again, each and every time we pick out red cups.

Gotta love it when folk ask someone to compare something that is nowhere to be seen to a color chart.

What do you think about the three kinds of conscious experience I set out recently? — creativesoul

You'll have to refresh my memory. But does it matter for whether qualia is a useful concept? I take it you think the three kinds show that it is not useful.

Do you agree that all conscious experience of seeing red cups includes seeing red cups?

Gotta love it when folk ask someone to compare something that is nowhere to be seen to a color chart. — creativesoul

Public versus private colored?

But thing is that we don't always see the same colors.

Is the idea/notion/concept of "Qualia" useful? Perhaps you missed this...

The term qualia seems to be useful in philosophy of mind discussions to pick out or emphasise the subjective, phenomenal aspects of experience.

By all means, I wish someone would at least offer some sort of explanation for using these words. If it's useful for picking out or emphasizing the subjective, phenomenal aspects of experience, then surely one of the proponents would utilize the tool by doing so.

Which aspects of conscious experience of seeing red cups are we picking out and emphasizing - to the exclusion of all else - when we say "qualia"?

What qualia?

But thing is that we don't always see the same colors. — Marchesk

There are variations in our biological machinery.

There are variations in our biological machinery. — creativesoul

Of course. That variation somehow produces the color difference.