Problem with Christianity

Athena

We are told a God judges us, but is it fitting for us to act like gods judging each other?

Let us say a moral is a matter of cause and effect, then we should judge the cause and effect (action taken by a person) but, not the person. It is arrogant to believe we know enough to judge another, but Christianity totally sets us up to judge people as though we were mini gods given this gift of judgment. Essential to getting what I am saying is there is a big difference between judging cause and effect and judging a person.

For example, we can know if someone used a gun to kill someone, but how well do we know the person and that person's experience leading up to what happened that led to the killing? How much do we know about life that gives us the ability to judge others, even complete strangers from totally different backgrounds? Please consider do we have the knowledge and wisdom to judge each other?

tim wood

You appear to assume that to judge (a term you leave undefined) is a god's act. To my way of thinking, to judge is merely to tell - be able to tell - the difference between this and that. And to call it a gift? I buy evolution: judgment, then, is merely grounded in survival.

As to judging cause-and-effect and judging people, you have not yet made these notions sufficiently coherent to discuss. But I am sure you can, if you will.

You can start with cause and effect. What is that, exactly? I assume some exactitude is necessary for discussion. And you're going to find that a not-so-easy subject to make clear.

And judging people? What do you mean by that? & etc.

TVCL

Another point of clarity could come from tightening the connection to Christianity. According to Christianity, God can judge because He is such a being who does know the complete causal chain that you alluded to and the point at which one's choices tarnished that chain. However, the problem that you are referring to does not seem to be aimed at God but the lay Christian who would otherwise judge.

However, Christians are not commanded to judge ("judge not lest ye be judged")... we are instructed to help and check each other, to help one another abide by the rules, but God alone can judge a man's Heart (and mind and will). At most, we are told that there will be a point when Christians "will judge angels and men" but this will presumably be when we attain capacities that we do not - as of yet - understand.

KerimF

↪Athena

Indeed you described very well Christian doctrines, known as Christianity.

But, actually, Jesus message is about 'knowledge of Life Reality', not about judgement or magical salvation; by pleasing God :)

After all, most people used hearing of the Christian doctrines and didn't have time to see what Jesus, in person (not via anyone else), says on the Gospel.

Caesar Saladin

I identify as a Gnostic Christian, but my guidance is derived from the 'Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth' by Thomas Jefferson (yes, THAT Thomas Jefferson), it being a stripped down and compiled version of the Synoptic Gospels, minus the 'magic' aspects. I don't see the essential message as 'rules for pleasing God' so much as help in simply 'being better'. As I have noted on other forums, even if one takes the position that Jesus never existed (or God, for that matter) the advice and lessons attributed to this 'fictional Jesus' are still very much valid and well worth implementing in one's life.

deletedmemberdp

↪Athena

"Christianity totally sets us up to judge people as though we were mini gods given this gift of judgment"

On the contrary Christianity is judged but clearly states that we should not judge others. Judge not others lest ye be judged yourself, look at the log in your own eye before inspecting the dust in someone else's eye are two examples of commands not to judge.
We all have to understand the existential problems of judging. Your discussion title is a judgement and continues to judge throughout your argument.
Perhaps your title should be that we all judge and usually we are unaware of it.

Outlander

For example, we can know if someone used a gun to kill someone, but how well do we know the person and that person's experience leading up to what happened that led to the killing? How much do we know about life that gives us the ability to judge others, even complete strangers from totally different backgrounds? Please consider do we have the knowledge and wisdom to judge each other? — Athena

That's what's attempted to be found out in an open and public court of law with evidence, details about the persons life, character testimony, witnesses, and allegedly a judge who is mature and very well versed in life and its many ups and downs who knows the law and rights extensively.

I guess the question would be, if someone kills someone close to you in cold blood for no reason, would you be OK with them walking away unpunished, perhaps to do it again and victimize more innocent persons or families? People will still take justice into their own hands. Do you see any reason for justice to be administered on the street by a mob who can't think for themselves and act on emotion and whatever public opinion happens to be most prevalent or would you rather it be in a professional court setting with a man who's job is to be impartial and everything and anything is recorded and able to be verified and or discussed?

Lokii

Read Matthew 7:3-5. No one sholud judge the other; quite the opposite. The Christian religion, the genuine, 2000 year old Catholic tradition insists on humiliation, confession and thus the remission of sins. It is very clear that in Protestant countries people are more inclined to judge others (precisely because they have abolished the sacraments), the same constant does not happen in Catholic countries. Remember the time that Bill Clinton was spotted as an adulterer and everyone detonated him? In Brazil this does not happen, I can say from experience. Of course, you will be punished by the law appropriately from case to case, but no one will point the finger like it does in the States.

Anyway, the big mistake that consists of mortal sin and recognized as heresy is the intention of wanting to determine good and evil, which is everything that modern culture encourages "Oh, there is no right and wrong, do what you like, etc", and that was the cause of the fall of Adam and Eve in the book of Genesis. Recently, Netflix did not release a movie for pedophiles and there was no major serious uprising from the media, or from anyone for that matter? We live in a mad world, and in the next decade it will only tend to get worse, unfortunately.

Athena

↪KerimF

I find your question of what Jesus actually did the most interesting. I do not remember one account of Jesus participating in the sacrifice of an animal. I have not studied the bible so I am not sure what the sacrificing is about but I think it has something to do with being on God's good side. That is, this judgment is about being pleased or displeased. That is totally different from cause and effect judgment and it is the kind of judgment that can be problematic so maybe we do not want a god who takes things personally and rewards or punishes people based on his feelings about the other person? More about the distinction of different forms of judgment coming.

↪TVCL

Yes, I know the Bible says we should not judge each other and I find it hard not to judge others. However, as I get older I am less judgmental. I think it is natural for us to judge others and this is why I bring the subject up. What I am saying goes with this year's politics and all the religious attacks and reasoning on voting for things like socialism or being opposed to it. Are "those people" deserving. Is stopping at charity and prayers enough, or do we need political action? How are we judging reality and "those people" and what we should do about reality and "those people"? I seem to be hypersensitive to what judging others has to do with our politicalchoices.

I like your explanation of why we shouldn't judge and the possibility that that will change. Right now for those who favor evolution

↪tim wood

I want to say judgment and prejudice is a biological thing. Or we could make things really messy and speak of Daniel Kahneman's explanation of fast and slow thinking. But in defining judgment as the OP tries to present it, there is a personal judgment that can be full of prejudices and unconscious decisions, or there can be a scientific judgment that is hopefully fact based and without prejudiuce or unconscious, unquestioned judgments. Such as needing to protect our families and neighborhood from those pagans and atheists or protect everyone from those people who are differrent from us. Should we build a wall and keep them out, or rescue them from bad places and give them opportunity to be one of us?

Out of time. Hope to get to others soon.

Gregory

Christians judge all the time. Instead of judging Jesus as not existing, they judge the atheists for being non-believers. Their faith is one out of thousands. It's not special, but they treat it as if it's unique

Outlander

↪Gregory

Well I mean... that's not as you wish it to be perceived I'm afraid. Musical artists are one out of not only thousands but millions even. Some succeed, and that success is based on something.

Gregory

↪KerimF

Christianity is actually about what you call "magical salvation" . In the court of justice you can't substitute one person's act for another. In the court of mercy, maybe. But Christianity is just about assuming saying the name Jesus, going to confession or baptism, magically bestows mercy. It's all meaningless

Gregory

↪Outlander

The only historical evidence of Jesus having super power comes from his disciples and Josephus, who also was a Christian. Every religion claims miracles. That's almost what a religion is.

Outlander

↪Gregory

Right. And all things being equal. Well, yeah. Must be doing something right, eh?

Gregory

Christianity just ties people in knots over their guilt. Catholics believe even when your repentance is not enough to eradicate guilt, confession magically effects this. Such is ridiculous and immoral, but sure people say they feel clean for a minute after confession. That's why they do it. Christianity won't fix anything deep rooted. It's fantaay

tim wood

Should we build a wall and keep them out, or rescue them from bad places and give them opportunity to be one of us? — Athena

Or maybe if we're in a bad place join them? Or if we're all ok, just socialize and get along cooperatively?

tim wood

It's all meaningless — Gregory

I do not think you know what you are writing about. What do you suppose "meaningless" to mean?

Gregory

↪tim wood

As I said, it's fantasy

Gregory

If people have guilt and don't believe there is some true ontological cure for it, i see them as hopeless. Christianity says it's indeed hopeless except for Jesus. Sowwy but Jesus is dead.and won't give you anything true and curing

KerimF

I have not studied the bible so I am not sure what the sacrificing is about but I think it has something to do with being on God's good side. — Athena

I was raised in a mid-class Catholic family. When I was about 15 (I am 71), I started realizing that what are called Church’s teachings didn't suit my nature, intellectually and spiritually. In other words, based on my humble logic which I had at that time, I couldn't relate them to my reality; to whatever I have discovered, though a few at that time, in my being and the real world.

Since these teachings were supposed, as claimed, reflecting Jesus teachings, I decided to prove, once for all and to myself in the least, that Jesus (real or myth) has also no importance in my life.
At age 17, I started reading attentively whatever Jesus, in person, says on the Gospel which I had (an Arabic Catholic one, printed in 1964). To my big surprise, I found out, even in my rather preliminary studies, crucial contradictions between his sayings and the Church’s teachings (Catholic or else). In brief, this personal study ended up, after many decades and to me in the least, what I may call ‘science of life reality’.

I think I have to also point out that in my high studies in electronics and data communications I became aware that a received data via a noisy/long channel need to be filtered with ‘appropriate’ algorithms in order to let be as close as possible to the transmitted data; to get an acceptable video image or audio voice/music for example.
I said this because a believer in any religion is supposed to preserve every word, if not every letter, on a book if it is approved (by the men in charge of his religion) as being holy; inspired by God.

KerimF

Christianity is actually about what you call "magical salvation" .... It's all meaningless — Gregory

So I wondered about what could be the reasons for which many people, who are as intelligent as I am (if not more), join a religion (actually a sect of a religion) as believers (worshipers). Some of these reasons could be:

{1} the human instincts (as of the less evolved beings) guide a person to join a certain well-organized group (if not more than one) to have a better chance to survive (he/she and likely his/her family too). This group could be civil/social, religious or political.

{2} the human instincts (unlike of the less evolved beings) let the human in question avoid, as possible, submitting to another human. This fact was known since humanity was primitive. Therefore, those who have to be in charge of a group (of the people in a region) created the notion of RULING gods/goddesses, so that they can rule and control their masses, without having serious complains; by doing this in the name of certain gods, not in their own names (see Pharaoh, for example). While humans evolve, the notion of ruling gods became ‘one ruling god’. Then, a clever ruler (I am not sure who the first one was) replaced the notion of ‘The One Ruling God; with ‘The Ruling People’. In all cases, the followers in any group are happy that they are not submitting to the rules and will of a human being as they are :)
(I wish to be notified if someone had the chance to meet 'The Ruling People' :) )

{3} there is a fact which is not supposed to be revealed or discussed openly. It is about the extra pleasant sensation one may feel while he is submitting, by his own will, to anther human. For example, if this happens in a sexual relation and even if the other side didn’t start doing anything serious, the submitted person starts feeling this extra pleasure in his imagination already. This may not be true to all humans, as some people told me :) Anyway, this extra pleasant sensation could be felt regardless of the other side’s nature, real or supernatural. This explains why in any religion (Jewish, Christian, Islam and Pagan) the believers feel great during their worship rituals, in private or in a group.

There are more reasons but, I guess, the three above are enough for the time being :)

tim wood

It's all meaningless — Gregory

As I said, it's fantasy — Gregory

Thank you. Here it's clear for all to see you that your thinking is nonsense and mean-spirited. That, or you do not know what the words mean.

TheMadFool

↪Athena

I don't know about Christianity but for judgement we need sound moral criteria and that's exactly what's missing or is highly controversial at the moment.

Athena

At age 17, I started reading attentively whatever Jesus, in person, says on the Gospel which I had (an Arabic Catholic one, printed in 1964). To my big surprise, I found out, even in my rather preliminary studies, crucial contradictions between his sayings and the Church’s teachings (Catholic or else). In brief, this personal study ended up, after many decades and to me in the least, what I may call ‘science of life reality’. — KerimF

How fortunate you are to be able to read the Bible in Arabic. I have found one language does not easily translate to another. Also, the Romans could not accept the Greek understanding of the trinity until they invented a new word to hold an understanding that could be expressed in Rome. I hold the idea, that people who know of Buddhism have a totally different understanding of Jesus than in the more materialistic West.

Understanding the Bible is as much about our culture as the words used. It will not be the same book to all who read it.

Much depends on our understanding of logos, reason, the controlling force of the universe made manifest in speech. How do we come to know logos? Reading a holy book or reading several holy books, or studying nature? Going to war because we believe that is God's will, is so different from not going to war because of having cause and effect logic and realizing many years after the war people will still be struggling with the effects of war. Thinking the wars are either won or lost and that is the end of that, is a huge mistake. It appears Catholics are less prone to believe God wants them to invade another country than Protestants and yet both are Christians. Christians with different consciousnesses.

I think it is easier to have agrement with scientific thinking than religious thinking? Religious people disagree and yet each is sure their different understanding are God's truth is the right one. That fact of life is what made me turn away from Christianity when was a 8 years old and a Sunday school teacher could not give a good explanation of why there a Protestants and Catholics and not agreement on God's truth. Later I found out there are many more religions, all believing they have truth and willing to kill eachother over who has the better truth. That is not moral.

Ciceronianus

The Christian religion, the genuine, 2000 year old Catholic tradition insists on humiliation, confession and thus the remission of sins. — Lokii

Also, the oppression and persecution of nonbelievers, Jews and, even more so, of unorthodox Christians.

Athena

I don't know about Christianity but for judgement we need sound moral criteria and that's exactly what's missing or is highly controversial at the moment. — TheMadFool

I totally agree, and we are not going to achieve that goal arguing about what a holy book says because all of them are mythology and not scientific thinking. The difference is an important matter of logic. This is about fast and slow thinking. About believing it is God's truth without question, or questioning everything and not being so sure of what we think we know. A moral as a matter of cause and effect is not religious thinking but along the line of scientific logic. That is how to know truth.

Ciceronianus

The only historical evidence of Jesus having super power comes from his disciples and Josephus, who also was a Christian. — Gregory

Flavius Josephus a Christian? I don't think so. Some Christian inserted a statement that Jesus was God in one of his works, rather awkwardly, but he remained a Jew though a kind of favorite and pet of the Flavian emperors.

There were several wonder-workers wandering about the Roman Empire, though, so the fact that miracles were ascribed to Jesus isn't all that remarkable; it may even have been expected. Simon Magus, for example, and Apollonius of Tyana.

That said, on the topic generally, we make judgments all the time about people, events, things. It's part of what we do. The trick is to do so intelligently. Christianity holds that judgment is required, however, as a matter of doctrine; judgment of humanity in general, and of people, according to doctrine.

Athena

Or maybe if we're in a bad place join them? Or if we're all ok, just socialize and get along cooperatively? — tim wood

"Day After Tomorrow" a huge freeze forces the people in North America to migrate South.

No, we can not join them for political reasons. This notion comes from a very old book praising the US democracy and our acceptance of immigrants from around the world, fleeing despots and nations that deny the people freedom and opportunity. We now seem to think of all Western civilization as democracies

and therefore fit for our occupation, but we may not do so well in the East. When the book I read was written that was not true. I think it is tragic we do not have a better understanding of history, and the consciousness of the justice and liberty we had. Building a wall to keep "them" out is solid evidence we have lost our earlier sense of purpose, our sense of meaning, and our mission.

The 1958 Nation Defence Education ended the transmission of culture and education for good moral judgment and left moral training up to the church. Now we live with believing we are God's chosen people and we are especially blessed by God. A totally false and dangerous belief. Instead of having the correct understanding of our history, we are living with the myth that democracy came from the Bible. :gasp: We stand to loose the democracy we inherited and that is why I started this thread. If the majority of voters are aligned with religion and not science, we are in serious trouble. Moral- keep your mask and do not attend church services where everyone is violating knowledge from science.

TheMadFool

I totally agree, and we are not going to achieve that goal arguing about what a holy book says because all of them are mythology and not scientific thinking. The difference is an important matter of logic. This is about fast and slow thinking. About believing it is God's truth without question, or questioning everything and not being so sure of what we think we know. A moral as a matter of cause and effect is not religious thinking but along the line of scientific logic. That is how to know truth. — Athena

:ok:

Athena

That said, on the topic generally, we make judgments all the time about people, events, things. It's part of what we do. The trick is to do so intelligently. Christianity holds that judgment is required, however, as a matter of doctrine; judgment of humanity in general, and of people, according to doctrine. — Ciceronianus the White

Thank you very much! The churches I have visited talk a lot about the dangers of those heathens and pagans and the need to protect the neighborhood for "Christians". I see this daily in prejudice against "those people" and the fear in our politics. No President has made this more evident than Trump so we can no longer ignore the Christian problem as innocent freedom of religion. Especially not in Texas where teachers had to go to the Supreme Court to stop teaching creationism as equal to science. The 1912 Texas Republican agenda was to prevent education for the higher order thinking skills. The Christian influence on our schools is strong and we are in trouble because this education goes with following Trump and not wearing mask or respecting science. Many fearing science as the voice of the Satan.

Do you know of Bible quotes that give evidence of the Christian requirement for judgment? What part of the Bible are ministers using when they warn their flock about the heathens and pagans?

KerimF

How fortunate you are to be able to read the Bible in Arabic. I have found one language does not easily translate to another. Also, the Romans could not accept the Greek understanding of the trinity until they invented a new word to hold an understanding that could be expressed in Rome. I hold the idea, that people who know of Buddhism have a totally different understanding of Jesus than in the more materialistic West. — Athena

I agree with you. For example, I noticed that the English word 'commandment' is heard by most British and American readers as if it were an order that should be obeyed. In Arabic it is heard as an important advice given by a loving father to his beloved sons. After all, love cannot be commanded; otherwise it can be called anything but true love.

I think it is easier to have agreement with scientific thinking than religious thinking? Religious people disagree and yet each is sure their different understanding are God's truth is the right one. That fact of life is what made me turn away from Christianity when was a 8 years old and a Sunday school teacher could not give a good explanation of why there a Protestants and Catholics and not agreement on God's truth. Later I found out there are many more religions, all believing they have truth and willing to kill each other over who has the better truth. That is not moral. — Athena

Jesus message focuses on the unconditional (lawless) love and nothing but love. And this love contradicts clearly the human instincts of survival.

If I heard Jesus telling me that I have to obey certain rules and observe some religious rituals (in private and/or among some others) to please the Will/Energy behind my existence (God/Lord), I would see in him just a founder of another Pagan religion.
Also, if Jesus tells me that the Will/Energy behind my existence is of One Being only, I would see in him a deceiver who tries convincing me that it is possible for a ‘one of his kind' being can live love or even know it.
Actually, none of these two cases happened.

But for practical reasons, the men in charge of any Christian doctrine around the world had to cleverly turn away from Jesus in many subjects (in other words, they created somehow another Jesus, unlike the one on their Gospel). And they focused instead on Judaism (the Old Testament) which was addressed to the kids of humanity (our ancient primitive ancestors).

Problem with Christianity

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