• Kenosha Kid
    3.2k
    @Mww & @Pfhorrest : This grew out of conversations with you both. I do not aim to convince either of you, of course, but I do aim to give a rough sketch so to why I believe that a priori moral rules and moral objectivity are redundant at best, inaccurate always, and damaging at worst.

    I have tried to write this in many different ways, and the OP ends up a small book on morality and natural history. If I add citations, it ends up as a normal-sized book. So this really has to be a thumbnail sketch, with padding out and citations given afterwards.

    The thesis is that metaphysical and object notions of morality are wrong, unjustified, and unnecessary, that a historo-scientific approach provides a more apt foundation for morality and has as its natural consequences moral pluralism/relativism.

    WARNINGS: Natural selection is taken as a given. Humans are animals throughout. I know there are many who cannot stand such ideas but I don't intend to re-fight that war. And this is going to be long.

    Animals fall broadly into three categories based on their degrees of sociality: solitary, subsocial, and social. Solitary animals tend to socialise for courting and reproduction only. Subsocial ones may cohabit and raise offspring briefly as couples, but otherwise operate independently. Social animals tend to operate in their cohabitation groups: hunting, gathering, child-rearing, migrating, fighting, etc.

    Humans are ultrasocial animals: we pack a lot of biological capacity specifically for operating in social groups compared with other animals. Typically, evolutionary pathways tend toward higher sociality over successive generations. We are evolved, for instance, from subsocial ancestors of rodents.

    Our presocial inheritance

    Brief outline only of heritable selfish traits:
    • survival instinct
    • genome benefit: cuckoos, parasites
    • basic needs: hunger, thirst, etc.
    • the costs of giving
    Selfish behaviours are not reborn with every human. They can be modulated by socialisation, but we inherit instincts and drives not just from our human ancestors, but from all of our ancestors, including our subsocial ones. For subsocial animals, what is good for them personally is good, so long as they can survive the obtaining of it. There is no exile, no lynchings, no reciprocity, no basis to evolve heritable characteristics for selfless behaviour and, whatever else we get, unless it was selected against in the intervening years, we get that too.

    Our social inheritance

    Competing with that we have heritable social drives, many of which are likely at least partly presocial in origin. For instance, empathy is linked to selfish behaviour. Understanding the perspective of another individual allows us to assess their threat and their vulnerability. It comes under the general negotiations of subsocial and social animals.

    People scoring highly on empathy tests show increased and concentrated activity in mirror neurons [Gazzola, V., Aziz-Zadeh, L., & Keysers, C. (2006). Empathy and the somatotopic auditory mirror system in humans].There are two kinds of empathy: cognitive empathy (seeing things from someone else's perspective); and emotional empathy (feeling what we'd feel in others' circumstances). The triggering of either is not a given. Some people react to empathetic stimuli more than others. People react to stimuli concerning people like them more than people unlike them. Psychopaths show no signs of emotional empathy, and only demonstrate cognitive empathy when specifically requested to imagine how a subject feels. Empathy is shown to be linked to the genes ADRA2B, 5-HTTLPR, LRRN1, and OXTR.

    Such tests also demonstrate increased production of oxytocin. Oxytocin also has its roots in subsocial behaviour. It is, for instance, produced when the uterus and/or cervix expand during childbirth, when the nipples are stimulated during breastfeeding, in romantically attached parents, in physical contact (e.g. sex). Yes, I said cervix and nipples.

    In ultrasocial animals (that's us), higher oxytocin is seen during grooming and social eating, in trust negotiation, and is also during empathetically-stimulating scenarios (such as those in mirror neuron tests). People given artificially high doses of oxytocin are seen to be more social altruistic: that is, they behave in a moral charitable way, and that charity tends more toward social altruism rather than a good that the subject might benefit from.

    Oxytocin production is heritable via the gene OXT and oxytocin reception via the gene OXTR. We also have a genetic amenability toward socialisation, mediated by oxytocin, dopamine, vasopressin and seratonin. Socialisation is important because most of the above are capacities rather than drives we are born with. To that extent, an immediate empathetic response to an individual in distress is not fully natural but learned via natural capacities for empathy, altruism, and socialisation together.

    Generally, people lie on a selfish-selfless spectrum from psychopaths and narcissists, through arseholes, normal people, and good people, to annoyingly aggressive and obsessive altruists.

    The underlying neural circuitry differs between psychopaths and altruists with emotional processing being profoundly muted in psychopaths and significantly enhanced in altruists. But both groups are characterized by the reward system of the brain shaping behavior. Instead of rigid assignment of human nature as being “universally selfish” or “universally good,” both characterizations are partial truths based on the segments of the selfish–selfless spectrum being examined. In addition, individuals and populations can shift in the behavioral spectrum in response to cognitive therapy and social and cultural experience, and approaches such as mindfulness training for introspection and reward-activating compassion are entering the mainstream of clinical care for managing pain, depression, and stress.Sonne & Gash
    -- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5917043/

    A Brief Natural History of Morality

    The above covers the how and the what: we are ultrasocial animals with heritable altruistic and empathetic capacities that compete with other, selfish heritable characteristics that, together with a heritable amenability to socialisation, allows us to make moral decisions concerning other individuals. That on its own isn't much of a foundational morality though.

    Why need the why and the who to finish off part one (PART ONE!!! IT'S SO LONG ALREADY AND THIS IS THE WHISTLESTOP VERSION!!!).

    Moving from solitary and social-but-solitary behaviours to higher subsocial behaviours increased out survival benefit by ensuring that more young lived to reproductive age. This was fairly trivial: oxytocin is structurally very similar to vasopressin, so likely evolved as a mutation. Evolution of the strictly social behaviours were instrumental in allowing social groups to cohere: they cannot be stable if everyone is out just to benefit themselves, their spouse, and their kids. The survival benefits of social groups are well known and include lower risk of starvation, of being killed in struggles for survival, etc.

    A key behaviour to social coherence is reciprocal altruism, and nature also had a selection basis for that. Our ancestors lived in small social groups where whoever they met on a given day was overwhelmingly likely to be either a relative or a neighbour they would see again and often. There existed then the potential for reciprocal altruism to benefit the group as a whole, as one kind act begets many more. Mirror neurons and cognitive empathy were likely originally survival mechanisms for gauging threat and opportunity, but they also provided nature with an operating empathy system to hijack for social altruism. Simply understanding how another might respond to kindness by knowing how you would respond to kindness is a great start, but we have, at some point, also evolved the ability to feel how we would feel in another's circumstances. (This is an area of on-going study. It might be that cognitive empathy triggers oxytocin production which trigger emotional empathy for instance, which would fit the aforementioned feedback loop.) Add oxytocin production -- already a thing for subsocial animals -- into the mix to build a general drive toward altruistic behaviour along with feelings of attachment and protectionism toward the specific individual, and you have a part of basis for morality:

    In one aspect, natural morality is a biological drive toward altruism triggered by empathy on the survival basis of reciprocity.

    As I said, this would compete with other, selfish drives we also inherit, but those drives are now accompanied by a health hazard. If you can get away with benefiting yourself at the expense of another, you are more likely to behave selfishly (viz. the rioters and looters comprised of yesterday's law-abiding citizens who accompany today's peaceful protests). But... A) You have to live with yourself. You have a capacity for emotional empathy that will literally make you hurt if you hurt others, unless you can train yourself or be trained by others or have a natural inclination to suppress it (socialisation and pseudo-socialisation, genetic impairment).

    In another aspect, natural morality is an incentive away from antisocial behaviour.

    And B) if you don't get away with it, you know damn well you are surrounded by other empathetic individuals who you have also hurt by hurting one. In social animals and ultrasocial ones, this can manifest itself in attacks, exiles, even lynchings. I'm hazy on the mechanisms, but I think its sufficient to say that a) there is a survival benefit in a social group that punishes antisocial behaviour among its ranks, and b) that social groups do punish antisocial behaviour among its ranks.

    In another aspect, natural morality is an incentive toward punishment of antisocial behaviour.

    These effectively take the place of a priori knowledge in metaphysical constructions of morality. They are biological in origin, honed for purpose by natural selection but completely divorced from that purpose, i.e. there is no so that at root (e.g "punish antisocial behaviour so that...") Formulated without reference to their biological bases, they might look something like:

    1. Do not harm others to benefit yourself: Antisocial behaviour is counter to what mankind is. Antisocial people are, to that extent, regressive... less than human... governed more by presocial capacities than social ones. Given the capacity for empathy, you are given the understanding of the harm you cause. If you cause that harm anyway, you are not making a rational error, you are making a social error: you are a hypocrite. From this we can derive a qualified version of the golden rule.
    2. Help others, for they may help you later: There is a selfish and a selfless aspect to this which is more in keeping with real human ethics than the ethics of metaphysics. We are not just social animals, we are ultrasocial ones. It is in our being to seek reciprocal relationships with relatives and neighbours.
    3. Do not allow antisocial behaviour: As said before, social groups cannot be sustained if there is sufficient antisocial behaviour to make reciprocal altruism unfeasible. It is not only a direct danger to you, your friends and your neighbours, it is a waste of your resources to invest in people who will not reciprocate but who will exploit.

    That we are moral beings, i.e. moral in our being, segues nicely into...

    Moral existentialism

    We are a long way from living in small social groups acting out a few simple moral rules derived from biological capacities honed by natural selection. It would be interesting here to think about the ways our capacities for socialisation were perverted by the powerful over the last several thousand years, including the current situation where morality is so starkly polarised: antisocial behaviour itself is lionised and yet altruism and empathy is being extended more and more thoroughly. Such a description would take us into the field of memetics, a generalisation of natural selection. But I have to wrap this up, so...

    There were two major effects pertinent here of the advent of transport and breakdown of the small social group structure:
    1. the people you generally see are strangers
    2. the people you live near underwent different socialisations to yourself.
    We have no genetic capability to deal with either of these problems, because those problems did not exist when we evolved. In the past, strangers were less likely objects of empathy, since they were more likely to be competitors and less likely to reciprocate altruism. (It is also seen in tests that in-group members' empathy responses to out-group members is less than to other in-group members, suggesting that counter-empathetic responses are not contingent.)

    The social group can no longer be regarded as family and neighbours. Families are generally distributed, and neighbours often unknown to us. Social groups are virtual and malleable: we work with one set of people, live with another set, socialise with another set, etc. These days, people are likely to have friends and relatives who live or come from a different country. There is no even vaguely-defined boundary you can draw around yourself and say: this is my social group. Your virtual social group encompasses the globe and is overwhelmingly diluted by strangers.

    How does one 'do morality' authentically in such a world? Individualism is the accepted political answer. Care for yourself, your spouse, your children, and otherwise do what you can to prosper. Harm, within lawful bounds (and lawful bounds are also malleable) is okay in the name of self-fulfilment. This is not a solution: we are hard-wired toward empathy and altruism and to suppress that is to make ourselves less than human. If we engage in behaviour toward others knowing or being able to know, via empathy, that it would harm us, we are hypocrites, and hypocrisy is the fundamental immoral act. That we accept, through our natural capacity for socialisation, antisocial behaviour as our social conditioning, it is only insofar as we have been morally perverted.

    The polar opposite is to accept the world as our social group, and this drives the trend to extend (and codify in law) altruism and empathy to more and more kinds of stranger, who are now less strange because they enter into our virtual social lives. But this is hardly a perfect fit for our natural morality either. The biological drive to do no harm is as grounded as ever but, when your social group is the world:
    1. harm of others is continuous and cannot be consistently opposed (empathy fatigue)
    2. reciprocal altruism is no longer useful, and yet we are surrounded by those we can help.
    Our biological tendency to oppose harm and help others is no longer feasible, which raises a potentially infinite number of moral conundrums and from which we derive a (philosophically porous) distinction between morally obligatory and morally praiseworthy acts.

    If you step in to stop a stranger being harmed, it is morally praiseworthy because we are naturally inclined to do this under one set of circumstances but cannot do it at all times in our current set circumstances. It must be permissible to not act end harm. Likewise if we help someone, it is morally praiseworthy because we are morally driven to help others who may help us but the person we help will likely never (have the opportunity to) reciprocate. It must be morally permissible to withhold kindness.

    The true moral condition of the global virtual social group is then:
    1. do not harm others to benefit yourself (unless you can absolutely get away with it)
    2. help others as you see fit
    3. oppose harm as you see fit

    i.e. 2-3 are now optional capacities. The existential problem is that, if I only have a capacity to do good/oppose harm and no directive or reason for doing so, and I cannot do so in every circumstance, how do I choose when to do good/oppose harm? There are many factors, but the only unaltered fundamental rule we have is: do not be a hypocrite. If you bemoan someone standing by while another is harmed, you oblige yourself to step in when someone is harmed. The moral rule is contingent ("if you...") on your socialisation -- which is not that of your neighbour -- and self-regulating ("you oblige yourself").

    It is perfectly acceptable therefore to do what you will that harms no other (hedonism), to never step in to help others or resist others who harm, so long as you are liberal (allow others their hedonism) and never expect others to step in to help you or oppose harm toward you. That is a perfectly valid moral frame of reference, and how one "ought" to behave is assessed only within that frame of reference. It is perfectly feasible that a particular socialisation could and has produced this sort of moral frame. It is equally feasible to for someone to be socialised such that they dedicate their lives to helping others and opposing harm, with no expectation of reciprocity, and moral decisions taken by such a conditioned person would be with respect to that socialisation, i.e. that moral frame of reference.

    There cannot be, then, a meaningful objective moral universe. Morality, viewed (correctly imo) in this bottom-up way, cannot have top-down rules because that is not what morality really is. Even the nearest to a fundamental rule -- do not be a hypocrite -- is not objective but statistical: there exist many for whom this is a practical impossibility because they lack empathy. They simply cannot equate the harm they do with the harm they'd feel if roles were reversed. Such people must be allowed their own moral frames of reference, because if you were in their shoes, that's what you should expect.

    Moral philosophy is overwhelmingly concerned with questions around how one "ought" to act in a given hypothetical situation without reference to the moral agent's socialisation, state, capacity, or any other details that a real person can use to decide whether and how to act. It is pretend-morality precisely because it denies relativism, pluralism, and existentialism.

    But these do not constitute a nihilism. Antisocial behaviour still exists, is still hypocritical, and is still sub-human. Those who pool wealth and resources at others' expense, who in small social groups would have been attacked, exiled or lynched, are still moral (i.e. social, not rational) failures. One is not obliged to oppose the harm they do, because one is not obliged to oppose every harm committed in one's lifetime, but if one is inclined to oppose harm, it is morally meaningful to oppose that harm. Likewise racists, misogynists, rapists, drug dealers, paedophiles, political opportunists, looters, etc., etc. You are justified in ignoring or opposing them, so long as you yourself are not a hypocrite. To oppose racism and be racist would be antisocial on all grounds.

    I believe that a more thorough description along those lines is sufficient to describe the why, when, how and who of morality, and that top-down or bottom-up a priori approaches are fundamentally in error precisely by not factoring in evidence of the why, when, how and who and, erroneous or not, are unjustifiable on the grounds that it can add nothing, only subtract.

    I appreciate the above is too long for this sort of platform, but I promised the opportunity to give me a thorough philosophical kicking so here it is. This is not a complete picture even of my thinking, but could be fleshed out ad hoc.
  • Outlander
    2.1k
    I know there are many who cannot stand such ideas but I don't intend to re-fight that war.Kenosha Kid

    War? No it's a debate. To some perhaps it is. You see something dead, therefore it is. Which even if refuted still elevates us only slightly over what preys on an opossum. Not worthy of lengthy debate. The only war was the one over people who necessitate the idea of war over living and sharing ideas that do not seem to conform. This was won long ago. Curious huh. A war that- by it's own definition of victory- can never be "truly won". How's that for irony.

    The true moral condition of the global virtual social group is then:
    1. do not harm others to benefit yourself (unless you can absolutely get away with it)
    2. help others as you see fit
    3. oppose harm as you see fit
    Kenosha Kid

    1. Conditional blether. Otherwise implies people get into accidents on purpose.
    2, 3. Do whatever you want.

    Sure. Why not

    But these do not constitute a nihilism. Antisocial behaviour still exists, is still hypocritical, and is still sub-human. Those who pool wealth and resources at others' expense, who in small social groups would have been attacked, exiled or lynched, are still moral (i.e. social, not rational) failures. One is not obliged to oppose the harm they do, because one is not obliged to oppose every harm committed in one's lifetime, but if one is inclined to oppose harm, it is morally meaningful to oppose that harm. Likewise racists, misogynists, rapists, drug dealers, paedophiles, political opportunists, looters, etc., etc. You are justified in ignoring or opposing them, so long as you yourself are not a hypocrite. To oppose racism and be racist would be antisocial on all grounds.Kenosha Kid

    Blanket statements, even when supported by all current social standing or "reality" that can be disproven under basic differences and changes are somewhat this. If the majority of society as a whole engages in either antisocial or subhuman behavior and as a rational man you seek to avoid it, this presents a paradox. You can't be subhuman for avoiding subhuman behavior. Or if you can, how so?

    All those newly-established words of negative connotation are unfortunately how everyone got here and most fundamentally continue to exist. Where they are, with what they have, etc. Except for drug dealing. That's subjective to objective laws placed subjectively. They could ban caffeine. All of a sudden if you trade in coffee or energy drinks that's you. Basically the idea of using the word hypocrite is logically like misplacing a past tense with a present tense. Not much debate to be had. Granted the idea of a utopia has long existed before any civilization has and people naturally want to be part of this, especially over another that is less so. So naturally we gravitate toward not what manifests this but what convinces us it will, obviously because we view these as one and the same.
  • Kenosha Kid
    3.2k
    . If the majority of society as a whole engages in either antisocial or subhuman behavior and as a rational man you seek to avoid it, this presents a paradox.Outlander

    Incorrect. It is merely an error. Rationality has nothing to do with it: that is metaphysics again. There can be no society of majority antisocial behaviour. It is an oxymoron.
  • Kenosha Kid
    3.2k
    There can be no society of majority antisocial behaviour. It is an oxymoron.Kenosha Kid

    In fact, I'll go a step further as there is a simplifying and unifying point here. Antisocial behaviour places you outside of the social group. That covers several points in one.

    The practice of devising unreal and even nonsensical scenarios for pretend moral agents to play out pretend morality is precisely the thing I'm arguing against. It is not useful because it tells us nothing applicable outside that particular fantasy. In a natural philosophy of morality, it is particularly acute. Nature could not have selected for social characteristics that benefited us in an antisocial environment. We can ask what happens when that social environment changes in a way inconsistent with your nature, and the answer must surely reduce to: that particular social drive is no longer relevant, it has no determinable object.
  • fdrake
    6.6k


    Damn good. :up:
  • Mww
    4.8k


    Interesting. As soon as I figured out the emboldened text referred to the section above it, rather than below, as is the norm in dissertation.......

    As for a philosophical asswhoopin’, I needn’t bother, for the entire section on Moral Existentialism, particularly the subsections beginning with “The true moral condition of the global virtual social group” and ending with “Morality, viewed (correctly imo) in this bottom-up way, cannot have top-down rules because that is not what morality really is“ is predated by....oh....couple minutes or so, exemplified in The Fundamental Principles of the Metaphysics of Morals, 1788, specifically with respect to the idealistic notion of “the kingdom of ends”. Not exactly, of course, but generally, Kant has said pretty much what you said within those subsections.

    But you have an intrinsic contradiction in your version, to wit.....

    the only unaltered fundamental rule we have is: do not be a hypocrite.Kenosha Kid

    .......which is correctly delineated as a rule, with the exculpatory.....

    “The moral rule is contingent.”

    However, in the next...

    “do what you will that harms no other (...), to never step in to help others or resist others who harm, (...) and never expect others (....)”

    ....are very far from contingent rules, for they abide no possible exception. Which, I must say, leaves the metaphysical barn door wide open to the notion of moral law in the form of deontological moral philosophy.

    But I totally agree: morality cannot have top-down rules, these being nothing more serious than, and having just as little power as, a mere administrative code.

    And I don’t give a solitary hoot for the science, the chemicals in my brain that make me both charming and obnoxious, cheerful and gloomy, lend a hand to those I like and leave a dipshit in the ditch right where I found him. I am quite known to myself without knowing a clue about my oxytocin level, thank you very much.

    Still, pretty much like all the other expositions on a topic, here we have a lot of what’s and who’s, but not much in the way of how’s, and while natural morality may tend to eliminate the need for a priori knowledge, the existential morality, which asks.....

    “how do I choose when to do good/oppose harm”

    .....would certainly seem to require it, for therein lays the how of the necessarily subjective determination of choice with respect to moral action, and the innate subjectivity of good itself. Or, at least the how we can grasp with words, rather than it be forced upon us by some obtuse empirical architecture.

    Kudos, nonetheless. Well done indeed.

    Peace.
  • SophistiCat
    2.2k
    What is curious about yours and @Pfhorrest's approaches is not their differences but their similarity. Both of them blithely skip over the is-ought gap without even noticing:

    Morality [cannot be this way] because that is not what morality really is.Kenosha Kid

    (Emphasis and ellipses mine.) That is, after giving us a quick tour of the natural history, anthropology and sociology of morality - what is - you skip to the conclusion - not about any matters of fact - but about matters of ought.

    Except that it is never entirely clear which part of the equation you are addressing. Pfhorrest operates in a more traditional moral philosopher mode in producing a recipe with statements of fact as inputs statements of ought as outputs. With you I cannot tell whether you are even making a distinction between the two.

    At first there appears to be a clear exception to the pattern: the injunction against a hypocrisy that is stated as a purely moral rule. But then you hasten to disclaim that that is just a matter of "statistics," that is that too is a matter of fact.
  • Pfhorrest
    4.6k
    Both of them blithely skip over the is-ought gap without even noticing:SophistiCat

    Not at all. My approach hinges entirely on the is-ought gap. The whole idea behind my approach is to look at how we handle “is” statements in science, and then handle “ought” statements in a completely separate but also entirely analogous way.

    Pfhorrest operates in a more traditional moral philosopher mode in producing a recipe with statements of fact as inputs statements of ought as outputs.SophistiCat

    Where do I ever take statements of fact as inputs? I’m vehemently against the relevance of any statements of fact to moral reasoning. If you’re thinking of the most recent thread where Kenosha, Isaac, and I were discussing my views, you’ll note my main critique of Isaac’s view was in trying to reduce all moral discourse to discussion of facts.
  • Enrique
    842


    Got to account for the effects of legal systems, education, conditioning, which you started to touch upon when mentioning memetics I think. Human values radically vary by culture and subculture, also evolutionarily diverge and converge massively. Morality is a cognitive interpretation of behavioral consequences, and even caring to begin with depends on the indoctrinating of our capacity for reason by example etc., leading us to interpret cause and effect in particular kinds of socially conscious ways. Social arrangements, even those of kinship or close contact, have always selected against empathy as much as in favor of it due to inevitable situational factors, and this countervailing pressure is only surmounted by relatively intellectual learning, which is what sustains, fosters or degrades the ideals that legitimize communities, institutions and civilized authority. I don't view ethics as existentially derived from simple instinct at all, though the conditions which generate it are effectively infinite in their subtlely minor diversities, so that values might superficially look personal.
  • SophistiCat
    2.2k
    If you’re thinking of the most recent thread where Kenosha, Isaac, and I were discussing my viewsPfhorrest

    No, I haven't seen that thread.

    Your facts are what you like to call "hedonic" whatsit, which you are supposed to collect, optimize and process and in some way as part of your moral recipe. They are still matters of fact that can be obtained with a sociological survey or something like that.
  • Kenosha Kid
    3.2k
    exemplified in The Fundamental Principles of the Metaphysics of Morals, 1788, specifically with respect to the idealistic notion of “the kingdom of ends”.Mww

    As I said myself, there are aspects from which one can derive something kinda like some well-known moral laws (I give the example of the golden rule). I'd say the kingdom of ends is perhaps less a good fit. I'd break it down in two separable ways.

    First, the categorical imperative is not strictly reciprocal. It is reciprocal insofar as any moral decision I make would be fit for a universal law, such that I might benefit from such a law. This is much more idealistic than our natural bent toward reciprocal altruism, based on the survival benefit of helping an individual such that that individual would reciprocate specifically to me.

    Second, it is unsurprising that moral biological capacity evolved in those groups survives within us for consideration by an intelligent and experienced human in 18th century Prussia, but that is a one-way street: the moral problems Kant had to address are not obliged to be within our natural moral capacity. Moral philosophy, it seems to be, is not a means of addressing moral problems; it is a symptom of incompatibility of moral beings evolved on one environment trying to make sense of a different one. One should expect difference, and one should not account for either the similarities or differences by recourse to intrinsic knowledge (unless one is being extremely broad in the definition of 'knowledge', e.g. storage of information) if one is to take seriously what knowledge we do have and know we have.

    “do what you will that harms no other (...), to never step in to help others or resist others who harm, (...) and never expect others (....)”

    ....are very far from contingent rules, for they abide no possible exception.
    Mww

    Not clear what you mean. Do you mean that you interpreted e.g. "never step in to ... resist others who harm" as a rule, or that the rule "resist those who would harm others" is a rule with no possible exception? Either way, "resist those who would harm others" (or its contrary) may be the rule of an individual, consistent with having a drive to protect those in one circumstance who do not generally exist in the individual's circumstance, but "resist those who would harm others" cannot be a rule because of its practical impossibility. In a large world full of strangers, it is simply unfeasible to obey such a rule. That is the style of the problem in a nutshell.

    And I don’t give a solitary hoot for the science, the chemicals in my brain that make me both charming and obnoxious, cheerful and gloomy, lend a hand to those I like and leave a dipshit in the ditch right where I found him. I am quite known to myself without knowing a clue about my oxytocin level, thank you very much.Mww

    But can you truly understand yourself and not know why it happens? I can understand a TV in a functional way: you plug it in, switch it on, press a button for a channel, hey presto: commercials! But I'm not really understanding the TV, I'm understanding how to use the TV. If you haven't already, and fancy being shown yourself in a way you did not understand, I thoroughly recommend (as I do to everybody) Daniel Kahnemann's Thinking Fast and Slow. I can't think of a more successful item to disillusion people of the notion that they understand themselves, and I say this without hypocrisy: I do not understand me as well as he does.

    the existential morality, which asks.....

    “how do I choose when to do good/oppose harm”

    .....would certainly seem to require it
    Mww

    No more than freedom begs the question of how I choose what to do with it, I think. There is a crucial difference between the morality problem and existentialism. In existentialism, I have freedom, personal sovereignty, and I have no compulsion to employ it in a particular way. It's like having all the tools and no particular thing to use them on. Our problem is that we have outdated tools. Any use of them is trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. There really isn't much justification for kindness to a stranger beyond those of natural moral aspect (1): the hit of oxytocin feels good, and I may torment myself if I don't. But there's no justification for the beef and vegetable pie I'm about to make either, on which... gotta run!

    Kudos, nonetheless. Well done indeed.

    Peace.
    Mww

    Thanks! Coulda been worse. It's messy (it was an editing nightmare) and there's expressions I'm already cringing at, but there's a sort of thing there I think. I'm pleased that you even entertain the notion that a priori moral knowledge isn't so necessary. Peace back to the Mww most high!
  • Pfhorrest
    4.6k
    They are still matters of fact that can be obtained with a sociological survey or something like that.SophistiCat

    Nope. These are the two halves of the analogy:

    Something or another is the correct thing to believe (there is an objective reality) ~ Something or another is the correct thing to intend (there is an objective morality)

    All beliefs are initially to be considered possible until shown false (epistemic liberty) ~ All intentions are initially to be considered permissible until shown bad (deontic liberty)

    Any belief might potentially be shown false (epistemic criticism) ~ Any intention might potentially be shown bad (deontic criticism)

    The way to show a belief to be false, besides simple contradiction, is to show it fails to satisfy some empirical experience, an experience of something seeming true or false (phenomenalism about reality) ~ The way to show an intention to be bad, besides simple contradiction, is to show it fails to satisfy some hedonic experience, an experience of something seeming good or bad (phenomenalism about morality)

    Never do descriptive statements, that assert beliefs, thoughts about reality, factor into the process of justifying prescriptive statements, that assert intentions, thoughts about morality.
  • Mww
    4.8k
    The practice of devising unreal and even nonsensical scenarios for pretend moral agents to play out pretend morality is precisely the thing I'm arguing against. It is not useful because it tells us nothing applicable outside that particular fantasy.Kenosha Kid

    True enough, insofar as one would have to existentially be in a position to decide something about the trolley switch in order for such scenarios to have a priori practical interest. But they can and do illuminate vagaries and ambiguities in both moral theory, and the humans that indulge in them.

    But theory aside, as long as it be given humans are naturally moral agents, re: there are no non-moral human beings, then no matter the social inventory, he must determine an object, taken to mean some willful volition, corresponding to a moral dilemma, and if this object, or volition, which translates to a moral judgement hence to a moral action, is in tune with his nature, he remains true to his moral constitution. If it is opposed to his nature, he is untrue, hence immoral.

    The devised scenarios illuminate, not the difficulty in choosing volitions but rather, the necessary dedication to a moral constitution. Problem is, people get stuck on which choice to make, when they should be considering what the agent’s constitution demands.

    It follows that there are no unreal or non-sensical scenarios; there are only choices virtually impossible to understand if you are not the one called on to actually make them. Anything else is mere unwarranted supposition.

    So.....will your counter-point be that humans do not have a moral constitution? In keeping with your non-metaphysical inclinations, I’d guess you would say we do not. At least, qua constitution. Maybe something like it. Or not.
  • Kenosha Kid
    3.2k
    Got to account for the effects of legal systems, education, conditioning, which you started to touch upon when mentioning memetics I think.Enrique

    I totally agree. I think if the OP proves anything, it's that bypassing it leads to a weaker, less coherent description of the moral problem. But power alone is such a huge topic, I'd have never finished. I get the sense education is a place you'd start?

    even caring to begin with depends on the indoctrinating of our capacity for reason by example etc.Enrique

    Well that's one of the interesting things. I'd say yes and no. Yes, insofar as it seems that empathy requires experience -- we are not born with functioning empathy -- and can be suppressed (empathy fatigue). No, insofar as evidence suggests that even if you are raised a racist, you will still have some empathetic response to a person of different skin colour in distress. That is, it is not that you lack an empathetic response, but that other -- so-called counter-empathetic responses -- suppress or reduce oxytocin production. It's complex.

    I think what we can safely say is that if human ancestors evolved empathetic responses, those responses must have at least been amenable to the kinds of socialisation our ancestors underwent at the time. Nature isn't wasteful.
  • Mww
    4.8k
    First, the categorical imperative is not strictly reciprocal.Kenosha Kid

    Oh, absolutely. It was never intended to be. It is nothing but a measure of best-case-scenario, where it would work just fine if every moral agent granted himself the same maxim, that is, subjective principle, from which the imperative arises. But the chances of that, sufficient to make meaningfully reciprocity, is slim and non-existent. We’re just too individually different in our mutual congruencies. The imperative reduces to......be-the-best-I-can-be, and may the rest of y’all live with it.
    ————

    the moral problems Kant had to address are not obliged to be within our natural moral capacity.Kenosha Kid

    Moral philosophy, it seems to be, is not a means of addressing moral problems; it is a symptom of incompatibility of moral beings evolved on one environment trying to make sense of a different one.Kenosha Kid

    Correct, on the first, the particular moral problems of a bygone era may no longer be pertinent.

    But, in the second, if it be granted that humans have not evolved, in the truest sense of the concept, one iota since, how we handle our own moral problems hasn’t changed. We still love and hate, give and take, think and feel, are inclined or persuaded, need and want, just the same, even if the objects of all those have changed, some quite considerably. Hence, a worthy moral philosophy address the handling of problems no matter what they are, which makes the time of them, moot.

    And theoretically, as soon as one adopts a moral philosophy, he should be well-enough armed by it, to accommodate moral dilemmas of any era. But that can never be shown to be the case, so we are not realistically allowed to use that possibility for our current justifications. As you say, environmental circumstance contributes significantly to moral dispositions from being members of a community, if not innate moral constitutions from being an individual (100% physical!!!!) rational subject.
    —————

    are very far from contingent rules, for they abide no possible exception.
    — Mww

    Not clear what you mean.
    Kenosha Kid

    A rule is contingent, as you say, but a law cannot be contingent because it is subsumed under a necessary principle. By admitting to a contingent moral rule, law is forsaken, but quantifying the rule with “never” this or “never” that, which broke no exception elst would not qualify as “never”, admits to no contingency whatsoever. In effect, you’ve possessed the rule and the law with the same power, which is contradictory.

    Minor point in itself, but nonetheless sets the ground for a possibility of moral philosophy predicated on law, insofar as if there are conditions which abide no contingency whatsoever, giving your moral rule some real teeth, then we have a moral philosophy operable under any empirical happenstance, including those “unreal and nonsensical scenarios” you mentioned.

    Just sayin’......
    ————-

    I am quite known to myself without knowing a clue about my oxytocin level, thank you very much.
    — Mww

    But can you truly understand yourself and not know why it happens?
    Kenosha Kid

    This reflects back to my assertion that understanding is the first conscious activity. With that, if I know myself, I already understand how I acquired that knowledge. In other words, for any “I know what to do about this”, or “I know what I think about that”, the understanding of this or that is already given. Assuming intellectual honesty and integrity, of course. Assuming I’m not kidding myself, or merely wishfully knowing or thinking. Or trying to impress, which in days loooooonnnng gone, might have been the case. (sigh)
    —————

    No more than freedom begs the question of how I choose what to do with itKenosha Kid

    Yeah, that damn freedom thing. First of all, one don’t choose what to do with freedom, in the proper deontological moral philosophy. Freedom is its own thing, it’s there, but you don’t technically do anything with it. Which is why “free will” is a conceptual abomination. (Shrug)

    With that out of the way, such an abstraction can never be more than a logical necessity, never susceptible to empirical proofs. Anything that abstract can only be something to believe in, or, grant the validity for. If one grants it validity, it doesn’t beg the question, but because the concept has no real ground other than a logic one may have no solid reason to accept, it does beg the question.

    And here is where your non-metaphysical inclination draws its power: that which is accepted merely for what is inferred from it, and has no possibility of sustainable viability except that, shouldn’t have any value. Its only theoretical accomplishment is to terminate rational infinite regress, being said to make the necessarily autonomous human will, possible.

    Bring your own salt.
    ————-

    I'm pleased that you even entertain the notion that a priori moral knowledge isn't so necessary.Kenosha Kid

    My turn: not sure what you mean. A priori knowledge is absolutely necessary for exposition of a credible moral philosophy, but your “natural morality” doesn’t incorporate a theory, but a post hoc behaviorism. I think. Right?

    Returning to your opening salvo, “a priori moral rules and moral objectivity are redundant at best, inaccurate always, and damaging at worst”, I might be inclined to agree a priori moral rules being not so necessary, certainly not accurate, but only because the a priori rules I do agree with, don’t relate to morality, but to the human cognitive system in general.

    One of my favorite principles: philosophy is the science of splitting hairs.

    Next.....
  • Kenosha Kid
    3.2k
    Thanks :cool:

    That is, after giving us a quick tour of the natural history, anthropology and sociology of morality - what is - you skip to the conclusion - not about any matters of fact - but about matters of ought.
    ...
    At first there appears to be a clear exception to the pattern: the injunction against a hypocrisy that is stated as a purely moral rule.
    SophistiCat

    I'm not sure if you're taking from this that nature has somehow given us some knowledge of the rule. But what I hope is evident is that this is absolutely unnecessary. You and I as people with ideas of moral imperatives and (incomplete) knowledge of evolutionary biology can look upon the drives toward empathy, altruism, and intolerance of antisocial behaviour and say they conform to a general rule: do not suffer hypocrites. It shouldn't be implied that this is elementary or that we need be in any way cognisant of it. That's the grand trick with evolution: it makes us do the "right" thing without needing us to know why (blink to clear eyes, shiver to warm up, vomit to expel toxins, etc.) And it can make us do so in many, more fundamental ways. Empathy seems a strong example of that. At root it is not one thing, and at origin it has nothing to do with kindness.

    The project of my OP was not to find natural reasons to innate or mysterious knowledge, but to attempt to show that any such thing is unnecessary. I perhaps, in the edit, switched between the biological foundations of morality and how we think of their effects too suddenly.
  • A Seagull
    615
    Something or another is the correct thing to believe (there is an objective reality)Pfhorrest

    This is an entirely subjective belief.

    Something or another is the correct thing to intend (there is an objective morality)Pfhorrest

    Another entirely subjective belief.
  • Pfhorrest
    4.6k
    In doing so, you are only describing why we are inclined to do certain things, and calling those things good. You haven’t given any argument for why those things we are inclined to do are the good things. You have said what some consequences of doing or not doing those things are, assuming that you and your audience agree that those consequences are good or bad etc, but not given any argument, befitting someone who doesn’t agree, why those things are good or bad.

    So you really are ignoring the is/ought divide. You’re giving a great explanation of what is, why people behave the way we do. And your implicit assumptions about what is or isn’t good fit well enough with my (and I expect many here’s) views on that topic. But your description of what inclined us to do those good things doesn’t address the question of whether they actually are good and why or why not.

    If you just mean we cannot objectively prove whether or not there is anything objective to prove, then sure. But we cannot help but act on a tacit assumption one way or the other. If we assume there is nothing objective, then should we be wrong about that (we did merely assume it after all), we will never find out what it is that is actually objective, or even get approximate that. If on the other hand we assume that there is something objective, then we still might be wrong about that, but if we are wrong, we’re no worse off than otherwise, and if we’re not wrong, then we stand a chance of at least approaching an answer to what that objective thing might or might not be.

    So which do you choose, assume it’s hopeless and give up completely, or assume there’s some hope out there and at least try to find it?
  • Kenosha Kid
    3.2k
    But they can and do illuminate vagaries and ambiguities in both moral theory, and the humans that indulge in them.Mww

    Sometimes, sure. My feeling is that people who hang around train tracks in groups get what's coming to them :naughty: Moral conundrums like this are useful, I agree. They allow the individual to better understand where they stand and discuss their position with others and maybe be convinced otherwise or convince others otherwise (part of socialisation). But they tend to be cast in terms of moral imperatives, at which point they become make-believe again imo.

    But theory aside, as long as it be given humans are naturally moral agents, re: there are no non-moral human beings, then no matter the social inventory, he must determine an object, taken to mean some willful volition, corresponding to a moral dilemma, and if this object, or volition, which translates to a moral judgement hence to a moral action, is in tune with his nature, he remains true to his moral constitution. If it is opposed to his nature, he is untrue, hence immoral.Mww

    For sure. Any such person is either attempting to get more out of society than they put in (e.g. freeloaders, presumably not traditionally welcomed) or else is ripe for exploitation. (Hypocrisy can go to the other end of the selfish-selfless spectrum too, and we would not say such people were immoral, quite the opposite. We would think there was something wrong with them though, and, in prehistoric times, nature would have weeded them out. Their rarity makes sense.)

    As for he must, I beg not. Unless you mean "inaction is an action", in which case that's true enough, but not due to moral considerations.

    Problem is, people get stuck on which choice to make, when they should be considering what the agent’s constitution demands.Mww

    The other problem is that they tend to focus on individual scenarios, whereas, since we cannot act on all situations, it is always reasonable to walk away from a particular one. If there were true moral compulsion, we would be exhausted to death. We can obviously ponder how we'd act if so inclined (in the mood, not in a rush, without a personal care, etc.), but any judgement based on perceived obligation is very wrong to me. Again, the artifice of the question creates the wrong impression.

    It follows that there are no unreal or non-sensical scenariosMww

    There certainly are: a society of mostly antisocial actors being one. But it is usually not the scenario that is at fault so much as the question around it. Whether I flip the switch or walk away is up to me: it is a freedom, not an ought. I can rationalise which is best if I have time, but there isn't a wrong answer.

    So.....will your counter-point be that humans do not have a moral constitution?Mww

    Yes, I think that's going to be my motto, isn't it: it's like morality, but not. I'd say our social apparatus if anything is on surer footing. That, together with socialisation... it's enough like a moral constitution for me.
  • A Seagull
    615
    If we assume there is nothing objective, the should we be wrong about that (we did merely assume it after all), we will never find out what it is that is actually objective, or even get approximate that.Pfhorrest

    This is a logical non-sequitor. One can still investigate what might exist even without assuming objective existence. And even if one does assume that something objective does exist this doesn't mean one can also determine unequivocally what it is that does exist.
  • Enrique
    842
    I get the sense education is a place you'd start?Kenosha Kid

    Cultural conditioning is a broad and difficult topic, not like I'm an expert, but I would basically argue that the human mind radically acclimates to what it is familiar with, recalibrating in novel situations until behavior is appropriately effective. A few issues:


    Bad examples provided by media, combative communities, badly run organizations and elsewhere leading to antisocial behavioral inclinations.

    Situations where biochemistry changes such that individuals are put into drastic disalignment with their social environments, such as a failing marriage, not infrequently with drug abuse, etc.

    Societies, classes and subcultures that have intrinsically (but perhaps not irremediably) incompatible or antagonistic standards and principles.

    Institutional frameworks susceptible to blowing themselves up or becoming so corrupt that ethical standards and real community solidarity are impossible.


    If you've got the solutions, I've got a million bucks!
  • Pfhorrest
    4.6k
    One can still investigate what might exist even without assuming objective existence.A Seagull

    Without explicitly saying so sure. But if one were to assume otherwise, then there would be no point to doing such an investigation. To the tacit assumption implied by doing the investigation is that there is some answer or another to be found.

    And even if one does assume that something objective does exist this doesn't mean one can also determine unequivocally what it is that does exist.A Seagull

    True, hence the rest of the principles, being open to all the options until some are foreclosed, and how to reach agreement on which are actually foreclosed.
  • Outlander
    2.1k


    Society of monks, hermits, or peoples who otherwise avoid eachother for whatever reason. Or perhaps, the go to example, a society of open slavery are examples of a society engaging in antisocial or otherwise subhuman/dehumanizing behaviors are they not?

    Fantasy becomes reality all the time. An early society of homogeneous peoples discussing the idea of "other people just like us but different" somewhere in the universe. Traveling the ocean. Space travel. Instant communication between peoples halfway around the world. Too many to list. You're using a floor as a ceiling by reducing the idea of society or reality-inducing change as "fantasy" in order to preserve belief.
  • Isaac
    10.3k


    That's a really nicely written piece. I agree with a substantial portion of what you say, but agreement is boring so...

    I'm not so sure that you can move as smoothly as you do from the biological description of empathetic pain to the non-hypocritical maxim of the new globalised society we find ourselves in. That pain has not gone away, and I don't think it can be as easily cast aside - socialisation can dictate behaviours, but it is less successful in undermining physiological processes. No matter what level of socialisation determines that priests behave celibate, nothing can fully eradicate their desire for intimacy because it's more physiological. The pain of others is still a cause of affective pain in those with even limited empathy (see Tania Singer's work), so I don't think you can so easily escape from the physiological consequences of ignoring the pain of others just by believing others morally justified in ignoring yours.

    I believe, instead, what happens in a globalised society is that we construct flexible and overlapping 'virtual' small-groups, and it is these we use to to determine valuation. Studies showing 'parochial altruism' (the tendency to be altruistic to in-groups than out-groups are notoriously conflicting and one possible explanation is that these groups are not fixed in modern society (not even from moment to moment). So what's happening is that we're using the very same moral decision-making approaches you list in your first half, unaltered. What's changing is the determination of in-group and out-group which is now highly flexible and circumstantial. Evidence for this comes from studies of how people assess the degree of pain they are prepared to tolerate to help alleviate the pain of others (again, mostly Tania Singer's work at UCL). Most decisions seem to have to traverse the nucleus accumbens which is involved in evaluating the status of others, and the degree of activation in that area is correlated with signs on in-group membership (the more obviously in-group, the less activity).
  • SophistiCat
    2.2k
    The way to show an intention to be bad, besides simple contradiction, is to show it fails to satisfy some hedonic experience, an experience of something seeming good or bad (phenomenalism about morality)Pfhorrest

    If this statement referred only to your own instantaneous "hedonic experience" then depending on details your theory might be something like emotivism (or a tautology.) But your theory involves some kind of integration over the experiences of all people in all circumstances. At which point those experiences become data and you are squarely in the is-ought transmutation business.
  • Kenosha Kid
    3.2k
    But the chances of that, sufficient to make meaningfully reciprocity, is slim and non-existent. We’re just too individually different in our mutual congruencies.Mww

    On the contrary, we are built for it. Obviously we cannot have reciprocity -- an outcome -- in our DNA, but we evolved to each be altruistic in an environment where, each being similarly altruistic, altruism would very likely be reciprocated.

    how we handle our own moral problems hasn’t changed.Mww

    I think it's changed completely and irrevocably. We are built for reciprocity, but not for strangers or people apt to see things very differently to us. Nor are we built for the sheer scale of opportunities for altruism we are confronted with. We weren't built to handle this many people, let alone this many strangers.

    And theoretically, as soon as one adopts a moral philosophy, he should be well-enough armed by it, to accommodate moral dilemmas of any era.Mww

    It's worth reiterating that such drives do not constitute a moral philosophy. In their natural environment, there's no philosophy to be done. Even our socialisations would, while evolving themselves, likely have been uniform and with unknown justifications. Moral philosophy starts when our social biology no longer fits our environment.

    This reflects back to my assertion that understanding is the first conscious activity. With that, if I know myself, I already understand how I acquired that knowledge.Mww

    Good. Then if it can be shown that you don't, the assertion is shown to be false, surely. I think that this sort of thinking derives from a time when we knew that some things we do automatically benefit us, i.e. appear to be intended to help us, but whose triggers we could not explain. They are pre-Darwin ideas and, as such, it is completely understandable that some kind of forgotten understanding must have made us, say, feel fear when we are in a strange place in the dark. What we have learned scientifically since is that no such understanding is required by us. Instead it needed to be the case in the past that a certain behaviour is a) statistically beneficial for survival and b) within our genetic space.

    We are then in a possible position of rationalising why we behave the way we do and, being not consistently or not only rational creatures, rather than say "It is unknown, let's postpone judgement," we invent, and, on a bad day, invent gods.

    First of all, one don’t choose what to do with freedom, in the proper deontological moral philosophy. Freedom is its own thing, it’s there, but you don’t technically do anything with it.Mww

    In the existential sense, and it was existentialism I was comparing our post-social situation to, freedom is a lack of "ought". It is in the sense that any choice we make, giving that freedom, is absurd by virtue of the fact that our freedom cannot justify one action over another (Kierkegaard), and in the sense that the necessity to perform that absurdity it is a symptom of human beings beings incompatible with their environment (Camus).

    With that out of the way, such an abstraction can never be more than a logical necessity, never susceptible to empirical proofs. Anything that abstract can only be something to believe in, or, grant the validity for. If one grants it validity, it doesn’t beg the question, but because the concept has no real ground other than a logic one may have no solid reason to accept, it does beg the question.Mww

    This feels like metaphysics justifying metaphysics once again. I believe the OP is consistent with the polar opposite interpretation: that this need never enter our reason at any point to show its truth, and that any logic derived from it is likely to be based on inaccurate assumptions about it. Square peg, round hole.

    I'm pleased that you even entertain the notion that a priori moral knowledge isn't so necessary.
    — Kenosha Kid

    My turn: not sure what you mean.
    Mww

    I just meant this:

    natural morality may tend to eliminate the need for a priori knowledgeMww
  • Kenosha Kid
    3.2k
    @SophistiCat

    In terms of discerning my and Pfhorrest's views, which seem to have comparable outputs, I'll contrast and compare Pfhorrest's breakdown of his philosophy with my biological treatment.

    Something or another is the correct thing to believe (there is an objective reality) ~ Something or another is the correct thing to intend (there is an objective morality)Pfhorrest

    Humans are ultrasocial animals built for empathy, altruism, and intolerance toward antisocial behaviour. Such drives are social -- beneficial for the social groups existing at the time of our making -- but we do naturally not know their purpose. These drives compete with selfish drives (sometimes the same mechanical processes), giving us a degree of freedom to behave on the selfish-selfless spectrum according to which drives win out. Socialisation is a means of creating uniformity out of that freedom. For a given individual with a given socialisation, there are some things that are the correct thing to believe, others that are incorrect, and most things will not have been considered.

    All beliefs are initially to be considered possible until shown false (epistemic liberty) ~ All intentions are initially to be considered permissible until shown bad (deontic liberty)Pfhorrest

    We are statistically biased toward doing what is right for the social group without necessarily making or having any kind of belief system about it. Hypocrisy is not shown through rationalism, and need not be shown through actually causing harm, though that will do it. Stimuli for empathetic responses can be hypothetical (e.g. reading a novel) for instance. Naturally, to commit an antisocial act is to place ourselves outside of the social group with all that that encompasses. Socialisations may spontaneously or by devising favour certain behaviours to certain groups over certain other behaviours to certain other groups. Devised socialisations are effective at making something "bad" (antisocial or hypocritical) appear "good" or, at least, efficacious. Our natural social biology without any guiding or corrupting belief system would tend us toward what is good for our social group (genetic "good").

    Liberty comes afterwards, after constraint. Natural social drives are not strictly constraining, merely biasing toward survival (genetic "good"). However, those drives are numerous and acting against them has severe consequences, which is a lesser constraint, if we cannot subdue them. To what extent our social drives compete with our presocial ones is part nature, part nurture, the nurture part being our socialisation, for which we are biologically equipped for. Socialisations are more constraining and more arbitrary, although one must assume on grounds of natural selection that, at some point, they were a good fit for our social apparatus. Socialisations can have the form of belief systems without the necessity of an elementary belief.

    Any belief might potentially be shown false (epistemic criticism) ~ Any intention might potentially be shown bad (deontic criticism)Pfhorrest

    All beliefs (socialisations) are arbitrary but some conflict with our social biology, i.e. are antisocial and most will conflict with other people's socialisations. Since both are arbitrary, so long as neither are hypocritical, both may be equally valid for an ultrasocial animal.
  • 180 Proof
    15.3k
    VLTTP :smirk: (Excellent OP and discussion. Mods, keep up the bannings (stake burnings); that seems to be classing-up the joint! :up:)

    ↪Kenosha Kid In doing so, you are only describing why we are inclined to do certain things, and calling those things good. You haven’t given any argument for why those things we are inclined to do are the good things. You have said what some consequences of doing or not doing those things are, assuming that you and your audience agree that those consequences are good or bad etc, but not given any argument, befitting someone who doesn’t agree, why those things are good or bad.

    So you really are ignoring the is/ought divide. You’re giving a great explanation of what is, why people behave the way we do. And your implicit assumptions about what is or isn’t good fit well enough with my (and I expect many here’s) views on that topic. But your description of what inclined us to do those good things doesn’t address the question of whether they actually are good and why or why not.
    Pfhorrest
    :100:

    Morality, viewed (correctly imo) in this bottom-up way, cannot have top-down rules because that is not what morality really is.Kenosha Kid
    By "morality" do you also mean norms & principles as well as conduct? Isn't "cannot have top-down rules" a top-down rule?

    Moral philosophy is overwhelmingly concerned with questions around how one "ought" to act in a given hypothetical situationKenosha Kid
    This caricature certainly doesn't apply to what's called 'virtue ethics' (i.e. eudaimonism) from the Hellenes through the (neo)Thomists down to moderns like Spinoza ... G.E.M. Anscombe, Alasdair McIntyre, Philippa Foot, Iris Murdoch, Martha Nussbaum, Owen Flanagan, et al.

    ... without reference to the moral agent's socialisation, state, capacity, or any other details that a real person can use to decide whether and how to act. It is pretend-morality ...
    Current moral philosophies informed by moral psychology (+ cognitive sciences, social psychology, human ecology (systems paradigm), etc) has in recent decades moved away from 'friction-free' non-natural/non-empirical inquiry.

    ... precisely because it denies relativism, pluralism, and existentialism.
    Well, the first & last are features not bugs: "existentialism" is just Kierkegaardian 'subjective idealism' (i.e. decisionist fideism), which is just coin-flipping (à la "Two-Face" or "Anton Chighur"), and "relativism", in so far as it's a truth-claim (negative or positive) is self-refuting; solid grounds to excise them from ethics.

    If by "pluralism" you mean multiple, situated, ways of applying moral judgments, whichever other sins they're guilty of, Pragmat(ic)ism, Utilitarianism, Consequentialism & Virtue Ethics do not, in the main, "deny ... pluralism".

    There can be no society of majority antisocial behaviour. It is an oxymoron.Kenosha Kid
    Agreed. We're an eusocial species as a rule so to speak.

    In existentialism, I have freedom, personal sovereignty, and I have no compulsion to employ it in a particular way. It's like having all the tools and no particular thing to use them on. Our problem is that we have outdated tools. Any use of them is trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.Kenosha Kid
    Disembodied, non-ecological cognition? Solipsistic fallacy (if it ain't, it should be). More Berkeley, I guess, than Kierkegaard?

    Nature isn't wasteful.Kenosha Kid
    Natural. Selection. Shake-n-bake variation by descent sans teleology.

    Exhibit 1: the 3+ billion year old fossil record.

    Exhibit 2: nucleogenesis and planetary systems formations.

    Exhibit 3: "junk DNA", spandrel traits, etc.

    Exhibit 4: cosmic expansion (towards) thermodynamic equilibrum or maximum disorder (heat death) --> heat itself.

    Etcetera ...

    (I might need to come back and clean up some of my "waste".)
  • Kenosha Kid
    3.2k
    In doing so, you are only describing why we are inclined to do certain things, and calling those things good.Pfhorrest

    I'm not sure I'd even go that far. Nature, in a way, has declared them "good" in the good-for-the-society-therefore-good-for-you sense. Natural selection is a wonderful optimisation algorithm and we should probably take it seriously except, as I said, we are no longer fit for our environment, so we also need to see its limitations.

    The distinction I prefer is social/antisocial. The hypocrisy of the presocial behaviour of an ultrasocial animal in a social group is antisocial behaviour proper. We are not meant to tolerate it. It is a rule insofar as our social apparatus as a whole -- that which makes us social -- biases us toward it. It was presumably a good rule, insofar as it was selected for in an environment for which is was suited.

    I did, perhaps regrettably, try and cast these things in terms of how a moral philosopher might see them, but that shouldn't put the cart before the horse. We should not take the rule as the foundation; it is a character of the true foundation of our morality.

    So you really are ignoring the is/ought divide.Pfhorrest

    I am rejecting it outright. I am saying it's a rationalisation based on ignorance that bears no resemblance to reality. If we still lived in small social groups, we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place. This conversation is a symptom of the fact that we have social apparatus honed for one environment but exist in another. If we still existed in small social groups, we would act out the good-for-the-group morality that we are built and conditioned for (assuming, rightly, that no small social group could develop an antisocal socialisation) without the necessity of an is/ought divide, and, had small social groups given rise to moral philosophers (which I maintain they could not), such moral philosophers would be as advised by our natural history that what is "good" is "good for the group".

    I'll go further and say that, of those moral philosophers outside of our selected-for environment who nonetheless maintain a position consistent with living without hypocrisy, who stand by the golden rule, who would seek justice for victims and against the antisocial, are almost certain to have their definition of good overwhelmingly influenced by their biology and, should they seek to define the character of objective truths and a priori knowledge, will oblige themselves to do so according their biology. I am not attempting to show that everyone's idea of good is wrong, but rather that it is, at best, a redundant post hoc rationalisation.
  • Kenosha Kid
    3.2k
    Cultural conditioning is a broad and difficult topic, not like I'm an expert, but I would basically argue that the human mind radically acclimates to what it is familiar with, recalibrating in novel situations until behavior is appropriately effective.Enrique
    :100:

    Bad examples provided by media, combative communities, badly run organizations and elsewhere leading to antisocial behavioral inclinations.Enrique

    Or antisocial organisations themselves. A cigarette manufacturer, for instance, robs you blind, slowly kills you, and lies to you about it the whole time. Somehow this goes unpunished. A natural response might be to hang the manufacturers from lampposts and set fire to their factories, but even a heavily moderated action on this instinct would go severely punished. This tells us a lot about our law and about power. We of course did not hang cigarette manufacturers from lampposts or set fire to their factories, and obviously a lot of that has to do with self-preservation, knowing as we do that our actions would have unwanted consequences for us.

    But I believe that a lot more of it has to do with our socialisation particularly with respect to law. The judicial consequences of retaliation are the stick, but you can teach a person, a group, a whole country on a statistical level, to have their own (even if unconscious) moral position on breaking the law, and that's much better than merely punishing people. (Compare to every protester in Hong Kong that knows they are likely to be arrested but does so anyway because they know what they are doing is right, or every black protester in the US now that knows that even black journalists will be arrested and/or assaulted, or every protester in the UK student protests who knew they would be physically assaulted and tortured but went anyway.)

    Media and politicians in recent history (Fox News, Dubbya, Blair, et al) that tell us up is down, left is right, bad is good, good is bad, are clearly exploiting the fact that socialisation can move us along the selfish-selfless spectrum on the whole. But they are also doing so after an extremely long history of that socialisation process being seen as up for grabs. It is obvious to those more along the selfless end of the spectrum that this is happening; it is less clear how that framework came about. My instinct is to say power through violence. This seems to be the old school way of convincing people to socialise their children in a certain way. If you can get someone to travel hundreds of miles and risk their lives to kill a foreigner in the name of good 1000 years ago, it is perhaps a testament to our biological morality that a) the occasional Hitler is the worst we can do and b) we correct ourselves 1000 years later.

    It's worth bearing in mind that, while people can be compelled to champion antisocial ideas and vote for politicians who will implement them, this is quite an abstract way of being antisocial. It's not like, on a statistical level, these people are going out and murdering each other, stealing from each other, etc. They are mostly pretty sociable people, and society coheres well enough. Those that do trample over everyone to benefit themselves, like cigarette manufacturers, are a small but powerful and protected minority.

    An candidate popular antisocial position is to not act on climate change. This is tricky, because "the good of the group in 100 years" is not something that nature can select for in a gradual way. It might end up selecting for it in a catastrophic way if we carry on. I think this sort of morality does require rational thought, but the "good" is a rationalisation of our innate altruistic capacity.

    Situations where biochemistry changes such that individuals are put into drastic disalignment with their social environments, such as a failing marriage, not infrequently with drug abuse, etc.Enrique

    This is weaker territory, since the sorts of environments we have are not those that could have been selected for. It's not obviously a socialisation issue either, though one presumes its something that could be socialised for. It's not like the monthly cycle didn't exist when we lived in small social groups. We must've dealt with it somehow. *ducks*

    Societies, classes and subcultures that have intrinsically (but perhaps not irremediably) incompatible or antagonistic standards and principles.Enrique

    On the incompatible standards point, again I think this is unlikely to have happened when we lived in small groups, since small groups are unlikely to support diverse standards. But, yes, we now meet people with different socialisations on a daily basis, and our social instincts selected on the basis of the good of reciprocal altruism no longer meet their original (unknown to us) purpose.

    As for antagonistic cultures, like far-right racist organisations and terrorist groups, they are at least under the impression they are acting for the good of the group they belong to. One of the most interesting experiments I've read on this is that such people are not generally less prone to neurological empathy responses toward out-groups. There is instead a competing counter-empathetic response. One can put this down to socialisation (raising a child to be a racist or a terrorist) so far, but tribalism is so common across animal species in their natural environments that some of these counter-empathetic responses surely have to be genetic in origin.

    Institutional frameworks susceptible to blowing themselves up or becoming so corrupt that ethical standards and real community solidarity are impossible.Enrique

    You mean things like the protectionism of violent racist cops and Catholic paedophile priests? I'm not sure I completely agree. It is a credit to the majority that they are appalled, protest, and demand reforms. The Catholic church is a bit different insofar as Catholics themselves aren't meant to be critical of it, so you get a lot of apologism. Within that community, yes, that socialisation clearly has some corrupting effect, but again it's not like Catholics went "Okay, anything goes then" and all started buggering alter boys. Whether they wish to acknowledge it or not, they exceed the antisocial standards of their leaders.

    And I think that is probably most often the case because psychopaths to positions of power are like moths to a candle. The majority of us are much more social, even if we don't know how to positively use that sociality, at least in a rigid way. The instinct of a cardinal to protect a paedophile priest is obviously strong, but he's just one jerk in a stupid hat. The instinct of the majority is to not tolerate it, so something of our social nature must be withstanding the onslaught of bad memes.

    If you've got the solutions, I've got a million bucks!Enrique

    Okay, let me just see if I can find someone to provide solutions for up to $900,000 and I'll get back to you :rofl:
  • Kenosha Kid
    3.2k
    Society of monks, hermits, or peoples who otherwise avoid eachother for whatever reason. Or perhaps, the go to example, a society of open slavery are examples of a society engaging in antisocial or otherwise subhuman/dehumanizing behaviors are they not?

    Fantasy becomes reality all the time. An early society of homogeneous peoples discussing the idea of "other people just like us but different" somewhere in the universe. Traveling the ocean. Space travel. Instant communication between peoples halfway around the world. Too many to list. You're using a floor as a ceiling by reducing the idea of society or reality-inducing change as "fantasy" in order to preserve belief.
    Outlander

    Re-reading my response to you I noticed two things. First, shit that sounded terse! Sorry, I was distracted and should have responded when I could give you the attention your reply deserved. Second, for likely the same reasons, I'm not sure I took from your point what you intended. Do correct me if there was a disjoint.

    Hermits are properly solitary animals, yes, so by definition you cannot have a society of hermits: any social aspect is the extent to which they are not solitary. There are btw social-but-solitary animals within the subsocial animals.

    You can have a society of monks. I am pretty sure they live together, work together, feed together and would help one another if needed. They might not be chatty, but neither were our ancestors.

    Can you have a society of mostly slave owners and slave traders? I would say not. I think your rationale is that slave owners behave antisocially toward their slaves but, while it pains me to use the phrase "in defence of slave owners", in defence of slave owners they would not have thought of slaves as being inside their social group. Emancipation was part of the on-going process of extending empathy and altruism via legal rights to more and more people, an ultrasocial (i.e. human) response to the replacement of small social groups with a world-of-strangers.

    So, yes, I agree that slavery was an antisocial behaviour, to the extent that it appealed only to the pre-social instincts of slave owners and traders and jettisoned that which makes us human. Slavers and slaver owners were, I believe, behaved as subhuman animals. But society was not largely comprised of slave owners, but of people who either did or did not tolerate them.
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