We already have a guy, didn't you know, he's really great, his advice is beautiful. Really, really it's so simple you just flush the body, the inside of the body with this beautiful thing and it disappears — Punshhh

Weird, I could hear Trump's voice while reading that. :grimace:

Have you seen any papers that are looking at weather ventilators are bad for people with covid, to the extent where it's better if they are not used?

Apparently nicotine may play a role in protecting against coronavirus

Not specifically but what holds for other respiratory failures will hold here as well.

This makes sense. I couldn't find much on Google scholar, the things I've found stress the necessity of ventilators, rather than looking at of those who died whether their deaths can, to a large part, be attributed to ventilator use. Partially on that basis, I'm guessing that overall using ventilators is beneficial when there's no indicator not to, and the statistics people are using to support "Ventilators are killing people!" look to require their misinterpretation to support the idea, and more generally that there are other variables (allocation of resources based on case severity) that better explain inflated mortality given being confirmed to have covid.

Whether they get to zero or not, what Australia and New Zealand have already accomplished is a remarkable cause for hope. Scott Morrison of Australia, a conservative Christian, and Jacinda Ardern, New Zealand’s darling of the left, are both succeeding with throwback democracy — in which partisanship recedes, experts lead, and quiet coordination matters more than firing up the base. — NYT - Vanquish the Virus? Australia and New Zealand Aim to Show the Way

Three cheers for throwback democracy. The experts said to apply the hammer. The politicians listened.

Ms. Ardern and Mr. Morrison have already discussed reopening travel between the two countries, and some scientists wonder if eliminating the virus with good management might rebuild some faith not just in democracy, but also in the value of expertise.

“It does feel like we’re pulling together and pulling in the same direction at the moment,” said Dr. Mackay, the immunologist at the University of Queensland. “I hope we can maintain that.”

“Maybe we’ll see the return of science,” Dr. Mackay added. “I doubt it, but who knows.”

Yay! :cheer:

Frightening forecasts.

Jan Vlieghe, a member of the BoE’s interest-rate setting committee, made this warning in a speech just released:

“Based on the early indicators, and based on the experience in other countries that were hit somewhat earlier than the UK, it seems that we are experiencing an economic contraction that is faster and deeper than anything we have seen in the past century, or possibly several centuries.”

https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2020/apr/23/uk-government-borrowing-covid-19-recession-pmi-us-jobless-claims-business-live?page=with:block-5ea165128f084784dca5874c#block-5ea165128f084784dca5874c

Frightening forecasts. — NOS4A2

Breathing through this moment preparing for the next. Even when it feels like we are all gasping for life in one way or another.
I find myself holding my breath..... Maybe I'm tired but I am not sure how long I can take this. . emotionally.
Two family members were diagnosed with cancer, both over 75 and neither one of the Cancer's are treated with chemo or radiation because they don't have an affect on the cancer.
Really? Did we find a cure I am unaware of?
My suspicion is that the medical treatment protocol for people over X age old is not seen as "worth it". But two people who are unrelated getting the same wording about the protocol for two different cancers. I smell bullshit happening behind the scenes.

Breathing through this moment preparing for the next. Even when it feels like we are all gasping for life in one way or another.
I find myself holding my breath.....

I’m with you. But if it’s one thing we can count on it is the fallibility of human prediction. Who knows? Maybe we can quickly recover.

I’m with you. But if it’s one thing we can count on it is the fallibility of human prediction. Who knows? Maybe we can quickly recover. — NOS4A2

I'm sorry to show weakness but I am getting ready to give in on giving up hope. :worry: it's hard to see the screen through the tears....

Frightening forecasts. — NOS4A2

"But there is some good news.... Vlieghe reckons the economy should, in principle, return roughly to its pre-virus trajectory once the pandemic is over."

Yes, especially if you have a shortage and high pressure on your ICU system, people will get their ventilator at the latest possible. But the later you start, the more exhausted the body they less likely it is the immune system gets a chance to recover.

I saw an interesting story on the news lastnight which illustrates how things in our society can change over a few weeks from something horrible which could never happen, to something normal, that people may say is sad, or unfortunate, but which they nevertheless shrug their shoulders about and move on.

Here in the UK, there has been every few days someone on the media saying that the government has instructed hospitals not to admit elderly people who have symptoms like Covid symptoms. Especially if they are coming from a care home and that this is not right, it means they are left to die, in an environment populated with the most vulnerable members of our society.

Anyway in the story there was an elderly lady who had broken her arm in the carehome and the hospital refused to admit her for treatment for her arm because she was to old, she was 83. The reason was she was older than 65, suggesting that they would not admit anyone over 65 for anything.

She remained in the carehome and died a few days later. Now there is outrage that an old person with a broken bone was not treated and subsequently died. If she had Covid, no one would have cared. We have accepted that the government has decided not to prioritise the elderly in this pandemic, even though they are the most vulnerable group and that there is policy actively preventing them being treated. We know there is no point making a fuss about it because no one will listen, the government certainly won't listen and the media is already tired of it.

I'm sorry to show weakness but I am getting ready to give in on giving up hope. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Panic not. The economic thing is largely nonsense. Some stuff is important, growing food and distributing it, mending the roof, you know the sort of thing. But if no one plays sport, no one goes on holiday, no one gets a professional haircut, no one pays or charges interest or rent, no one makes a film, and no one installs a new kitchen, then no one will need suffer anything worse than boredom.

That's totally immoral. Is it really true?

My interest was more taken by the news that political advisers are sitting on the scientific advisory group. So when the government claims to be following scientific advice, they actually mean political advice.

source

This really really bad news, because the inevitable result will be that science becomes discredited. Lies destroy trust, therefore they undermine communication and community. This is where the high price will be paid; not in economics but in the possibility of rational discourse and the fragmentation of society. Leaders are unbelievable, then they are unfollow-able, and directionless panic is lethal. It's not the disinfectant that is dangerous to us all, it's the lies.

Yes it's true, indeed when I googled it two almost identical stories came up, so this has happened twice to elderly women in the last few days. I have linked to this one, she was suspected of having Covid, which was probably why she was not admitted. The other lady definitely didn't have symptoms. The other story is in a toxic newspaper (The Sun), I won't poison you by linking to it.

https://www.channel4.com/news/revealed-elderly-woman-dies-after-being-refused-admission-from-glasgow-hospital

Yes, I concur. I knew right from the beginning when they wheeled out Chris Witty that they were presenting groomed "scientific advice". Not that he is not a man of integrity, but rather he would have been groomed by the spin machine in Downing st.

At least an attempt was made to get her to the hospital. It's not clear that she was actually turned down. Maybe it wasn't clear how bad she really was?

Panic not. The economic thing is largely nonsense. — unenlightened

So you think the unemployment is nonsense?

An economic depression is a bad thing, if you don't have a job and wealth.

yes, she had been admitted initially, but then refused when her condition subsequently deteriorated. It looks like there was no consultation with the patient on the second occasion, just a blanket refusal.

There are many cases like this popping up in the media. There is surely some directive or instruction for frontline staff to refuse older patients from care homes. Perhaps the reason is that there is little point admitting elderly patients if they require ventilation for Covid, as it will most likely result in the patient dying anyway and occupy a ventilator which could be used for someone else. If this is the case, then poor communication, or instruction could result in all old patients being refused admission, or a lack of proper consultation with the patient due to age, or if they are in a care home. Resulting in the guidance being mis interpreted, applied.

There is surely some directive or instruction for frontline staff to refuse older patients from care homes. — Punshhh

It should be managed case by case. I imagine there will be an investigation eventually.

So you think the unemployment is nonsense? — ssu

Yes. That's why we invent labour saving devices - because employment stinks. I bet you thought it was so we could do more work. :roll:

Any smokers? It appears that in their infinite wisdom the media was wrong about Covid-19 being horrible for smokers. It appears it’s the other way around, and I’m considering taking up smoking or trying nicotine patches for the remainder of the year.

Conclusions and relevance: Our cross sectional study in both COVID-19 out- and inpatients strongly suggests that daily smokers have a very much lower probability of developing symptomatic or severe SARS-CoV-2 infection as compared to the general population.

https://www.qeios.com/read/article/569

Taking into account the age and sex of the patients, the researchers discovered the number of smokers was much lower than that in the general population estimated by the French health authority Santé Publique France at about 40% for those aged 44-53 and between 8.8% and 11.3% for those aged 65-75.

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The renowned French neurobiologist Jean-Pierre Changeux, who reviewed the study, suggested the nicotine might stop the virus from reaching cells in the body preventing its spread. Nicotine may also lessen the overreaction of the body’s immune system that has been found in the most severe cases of Covid-19 infection.

The findings are to be verified in a clinical study in which frontline health workers, hospital patients with the Covid-19 virus and those in intensive care will be given nicotine patches.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/22/french-study-suggests-smokers-at-lower-risk-of-getting-coronavirus

Or am I being duped by big tobacco?

I would have thought it more likely to be the chronic irritation of the lungs that might dampen the severity of the Cytosine storm than a benefit of nicotine. Have you considered inhaling a disinfectant spray instead?

I'm sorry to show weakness but I am getting ready to give in on giving up hope. :worry: it's hard to see the screen through the tears....

That’s understandable. But despair will only make things worse. Maybe it’s best to just get through this one day at a time.

That’s what I was wondering, if it’s rather a big coating of tar on the lungs that may help more than the nicotine.

As for the disinfectant I went with the injection route.

https://wellcomeopenresearch.org/articles/5-75

here's a study that's actually quantifying how much life has been lost and adjusting for comorbidities and demographics.

I didn't know beige was so fashionable.