Self-love?

Yes, well, this seems like a common theme of yours, about inter-connectivity. Yet, most people feel very lonely and sad being themselves.

How do you explain this feature of the world, that leaves us feeling desolated with our own thoughts? — Shawn

That’s kind of the point. It doesn’t help to try and define ourselves as a separate entity in relation to the world - this is where the loneliness stems from. When I feel the need to draw a conceptual line where my ‘self’ ends and the rest of the world begins, then I am ignoring, isolating and excluding information to achieve this. To try and achieve self-love and loving others with this separate perspective of ourselves leads to uncharitable comparisons, as well as fear, hatred ignorance and oppression - either towards ourselves or towards the world.

The idea is to stop trying to define ourselves as an individual in relation to the world, but rather as a particular manifestation of the potential of an interconnected universe. It doesn’t matter where I end and you begin - in loving you, I am not choosing you instead of myself, but rather choosing to realise the potential of these connections that are as much a part of me as they are of you.

I don't mean to rain on your parade; but, the history of humankind indicates that there are exceedingly few people who are philanthropic. As much as I hate my own negativity, it seems like even after Jesus sacrificed himself for our sins, that we continue on perpetuating this theme of self-enrichment, even manifest in this thread!

Just because the probability isn’t high, doesn’t mean the potential isn’t there.

Just because the probability isn’t high, doesn’t mean the potential isn’t there. — Possibility

Does it require willpower to entertain self-love?

What is preventing people from feeling self-love? — Shawn

If you say that "love" is simply "love", be it directed towards oneself or towards others then it makes it a little easier to work with and see.

We like to imagine that "hate" is the opposite of "love". It isn't. "Fear" is the opposite of "love". Where there is fear, there is no love. So you could say, love is always present but it gets obscured by fear or any other feeling that is "not love". Hence why "being kind and caring" which are attributes of love, help you feel more loving.

If you liken love to a completely still pond of water. The less disturbed that water is, the clearer it is. Love works the same. If there are small disturbances in the pond, love is only slightly obscured. If you create big disturbances, then love is more obscured. Eventually the pond becomes completely disturbed and love cannot be felt. It is still there, it is always there, but you can lose the sense of it by creating disturbances.

Does it require willpower to entertain self-love? — Shawn

It requires will power not to indulge your self in fantasies where by you are separate from the creation whilst still trying to maintain you are part of the creation. I have to agree with "Possibility" on this.

the history of humankind indicates that there are exceedingly few people who are philanthropic — Shawn

And that's a good thing, because instead more people are charitable. Problem solving, especially when it is aimed at the outside world, is fraught with error and usually adds to the misery of the human condition - taking recycling for instance! Instead, problem solvers would do more good by solving the problems internally before trying to change the world. Have you discovered your purpose yet, or are you trying to create your own purpose in life?

As much as I hate my own negativity, it seems like even after Jesus sacrificed himself for our sins, that we continue on perpetuating this theme of self-enrichment, even manifest in this thread! — Shawn

This is Theology, not Ethics.

Does it require willpower to entertain self-love? — Shawn

The application of the Golden Rule becomes an automatic process, arising from empathy, which begins to develop at 3 years of age (Borke, 1971). Intersubjectivity and empathy result from the operation of the mirror mechanism (experience of others' acts, including simultaneous exteroception and interoception, and the activation of common and/or associated mental representations) (Rizzolatti & Craighero, 2005).

So, you are correct: there is no regard for the welfare of others without regard for the welfare of self.

If you have no love (regard for the welfare) of self, you die. This kind of love has nothing to do with emotion, and is cultivated by the experience and practice of neurologically typical human beings.

Does it require willpower to entertain self-love? — Shawn

You don’t ‘entertain’ self-love. Let me go back a step, and try to meet you where you’re at...

Jesus is said to have claimed that one ought not treat others in a manner that they would not treat themselves. I believe that such a sentiment cannot arise without self-love. Self-love requires one to be consistent and have a high self-esteem. — Shawn

Jesus’ message was to challenge the notion of ‘self-love’ that requires us to devalue what is ‘not-self’ in order to value and realise our own potential in relation to it. What he asks is that we love others with the same value as we love ourselves - that we perceive and realise our potential and value as intertwined with the potential and value of those with whom we interact, rather than isolated or exclusive. There is NO need to be consistent, or to have high self-esteem. Integrity, self-awareness and patience are where it starts. There IS need for courage, too - not so much ‘willpower’.

I doubt that Jesus expected this to be understood during his lifetime - he simply demonstrated the potential.

People might think that it's narcissistic to indulge in self love; but, I contest that notion.

Jesus is said to have claimed that one ought not treat others in a manner that they would not treat themselves. I believe that such a sentiment cannot arise without self-love. Self-love requires one to be consistent and have a high self-esteem.

Yet, many people tend to become assholes or pretentious due to this.

So, my question is twofold.

1. Is self-love possible without negative and highly selfish traits arising?
2. If so how does one go about doing this?
— Shawn

Being on the low end of the love spectrum, herein meant as desirability I know how tough it is to find love; all these fairy tales about "true" love, if such a thing as "true" love event existed/exists, are simply too unrealistic to make it from fiction to fact. Thus, why not indulge yourself in some self-love, given how finding a person to do that for you is simply beyond the reach of ordinary mortals like myself. You may not deserve it though but isn't that what true love is? To love that which doesn't deserve love is the highest form of love, isn't it?

Also, the very notion of loving others is maybe based on how bad one feels when unloved. Just saying... — TheMadFool

If you want a woman that is relatively thin but can also eat alot, date a girl who likes to lift weights alot. She might be able to kick your ass, but she'll have a pretty face and a somewhat thin body. Women love to eat.

If you don't want to have kids then marry a girl who already has kids so when she asks you to help you with her kids, your the hero and at the same time you don't have to worry extensively about them because they aren't really your kids. The edge is taken off that way.

Don't make fun of James Kirk, he was a great man. Could you have managed the Star Ship Enterprise? I don't think so buddy.

What is love? I would suggest that it is a strong feeling towards an object for which you only want what is good. If this definition is right, it would be impossible not to feel love for oneself since we can only want what is good for ourselves. Whatever you want, you want it because you think it will bring you satisfaction (or lack of dissatisfaction if you are suicidal). Also, the feeling towards yourself is necessarily strong because of the nearness or immediacy of your relationship with yourself.

It is sometimes argued that because it is not possible not to feel satisfaction whenever you succeed in doing something, all actions are essentially selfish. But even if that is so, there is clearly a difference between actions that at least look altruistic and plain asshole behavior. If there’s always selfishness anyway, the goal would be to train yourself to get this selfish feeling of satisfaction when you are doing something that looks unselfish. If you are able to feel satisfaction when helping others you are a better person than someone who only feels satisfaction when he himself is benefited. In other words, the natural self-love should be nurtured so that it is stimulated when loving others.

Thinking a bit further about this issue, I want to bring up empathy.

How much does empathy factor into treating one's self in a good manner? What is it about empathy that would lead one to conclude that they ought to be empathetic towards themselves?

Thinking a bit further about this issue, I want to bring up empathy. — Shawn

Too late; I did that here.

How much does empathy factor into treating one's self in a good manner? What is it about empathy that would lead one to conclude that they ought to be empathetic towards themselves? — Shawn

Read some of these and try to come up with some intelligent questions.

Read some of these and try to come up with some intelligent questions. — Galuchat

Here's one for you...

Under what circumstances is empathy rational?

Jesus is said to have claimed that one ought not treat others in a manner that they would not treat themselves.
— Shawn

No he didn't. He said to love others as much as yourself. — unenlightened

Sorry to get back to your post so late. I mean, one has to know how much they love themselves to be able to reciprocate it, don't they?

People might think that it's narcissistic to indulge in self love; but, I contest that notion.

Jesus is said to have claimed that one ought not treat others in a manner that they would not treat themselves. I believe that such a sentiment cannot arise without self-love. Self-love requires one to be consistent and have a high self-esteem.

Yet, many people tend to become assholes or pretentious due to this.

So, my question is twofold.

1. Is self-love possible without negative and highly selfish traits arising?
2. If so how does one go about doing this? — Shawn

I may have misspoken in my previous reply. It seems, if people are like me in relevant terms, that self-love maybe the wrong way to describe this. It's not love at all. Love is a positive valuation of what is loved and people don't love themselves in that sense in my opinion. The thoughts people have of themselves are actually survival-oriented i.e. their concern is very basic - they wish to draw another breath of life-sustaining air. It's not the case that they feel themselves to be worthy of love and thus indulge themselves in self-love. To the contrary, they're simply trying to make it to the other side of today, tomorrow, in one piece and that has been misinterpreted as self-love. Basically, it isn't true that people value themselves highly and then love their reflection in the mirror; all people are trying to do is not die and that involves some degree of selfishness.