I lived through a good chunk of it. — fishfry

Oh this explains it

Maybe read and respond to what I wrote instead of repeating hysterical nonsense.

The price increases for Obamacare are exaggerated and actually less than historic trends, with possible outliers in certain states. — Benkei

You'll be a good Biden voter then. Hope you're happy with what your side has done.

@fishfry No-one is advocating Stalinism here. We're talking about the type of healthcare that even every conservative government in the Western world supports.

I don't vote and I'd certainly not vote for a senile fossil like him. Not my side in any case as the Dens and Reps are two sides of the same coin.

Why is anyone taking fish seriously he thinks Hillary might be nominated this disqualifies him from adult conversation.

Maybe read and respond to what I wrote instead of repeating hysterical nonsense. — Baden

Done politicking for the day. Not productive to debate socialists who don't even see the wealth around them that liberty and free enterprise have produced.

By the way what motivates private entities to do well by consumers is competition. All the kids with iPhone in their hands use them to tweet against corporations. It's to laugh.

I'm honestly politicked out., no more replies today else this could go on without end. FWIW a lot of people in this thread should be writing to the DNC and yelling at their fellow Dems who just resoundingly rejected their socialistic ideas.

Why is anyone taking fish seriously he thinks Hillary might be nominated this disqualifies him from adult conversation. — StreetlightX

Are you representing to me that (a) You read a wide variety of political news and opinion; and (b) that you have never heard such speculation from professional pundits and observers?

I don't vote and I'd certainly not vote for a senile fossil like him. Not my side in any case as the Dens and Reps are two sides of the same coin. — Benkei

Thank you so much for that. I agree completely. And I'm not a socialist, which upsets a few handles on this site. The entire Dem electorate just rejected them the past two weeks, they must be despondent.

lol

You keep saying "socialist", "socialist" without responding to anything I said and then you say you're done. Nothing I've said is "socialist" in the way you've implied. I repeat, it's conservative policy here too. We can talk about socialism another time.

By the way what motivates private entities to do well by consumers is competition. — fishfry

This is too rosy. They are also motivated to lobby. To externalise costs, cutting corners and basically arbitraging legal, tax and economic differences between countries. So they evade tax, or lobby for less tax, pollute where they can, or lobby for looser environmental regulations, make you work as much as you can and pay as little as they can or move to a country where they can.

What motivates corporations is PROFIT. They don't like competition at all. Uber is trying to buy a monopoly in the taxi business. Banks have been consolidating so they can get the implicit guarantee that comes with "too big to fail" (and save millions in financing per year). I could continue for 2 hours enumerating examples how corporations often do not work to our benefit.

The market mechanism is great in a mature, predictable and informationally and power balanced market. These markets are pretty rare though and even then there are usually a lot of hidden costs.

You keep saying "socialist", "socialist" without responding to anything I said and then you say you're done. Nothing I've said is "socialist" in the way you've implied. I repeat, it's conservative policy here too. We can talk about socialism another time. — Baden

I had a flood of mentions and have not kept track of everyone's individual positions. If I misconstrued your position I apologize. But if I simply failed to respond to your substantive remarks, it's because I only noticed the insults. But as I say, I cut all the Bernie fans a lot of slack since you all must be totally devastated this week. M4A is the worst idea ever. If you disagree then we disagree. See if you can get more people on your side next time.

I don't live in the US, so I don't have to worry about it, personally. Excepting doctor's visits, I get my healthcare for free. Ergo, it's a theoretical argument for me. And you're not engaging.

What motivates corporations is PROFIT. — Benkei

I agree that Marx had it right when he described what a disaster late stage capitalism would be. No question the system's not working. Hence Trump and Bernie. I just don't think socialism's the answer. If capitalism's not the answer either, what then? I have no idea. What Uber does is very exploitive. It would be pointless for me to try to defend what's become of capitalism. Our system's broken. That doesn't mean I can't call out the worst of the bad ideas that have been suggested to fix it.

Do you think the type of welfare State like the Netherlands is better or worse than the USA? And why?

Feel free to shoot questions at me about aspects of Dutch society if you can't tell just yet. I am going to bed now though so I won't answer soon.

I don't live in the US, so I don't have to worry about it, personally. Excepting doctor's visits, I get my healthcare for free. Ergo, it's a theoretical argument for me. And you're not engaging. — Baden

Well FWIW the corporatized American system of medicine is problematic. I don't dispute that. And I'm not engaging. Haven't I said enough about health care? It's not even one of my hobby horse subjects. I don't care about it enough. I've stated my opinions to the level of detail I have an interest in discussing. I hope this is ok with you because I just don't care that much about health care policy except for opposition to M4A.

If you are happy with your health care that's great. I'm an American and I am very happy with my health care although the bureaucracy can be frustrating.

Sure.

Do you think the type of welfare State like the Netherlands is better or worse than the USA? And why? — Benkei

Not familiar with the Netherlands at all. What if I said I have no objection in principle to universal state-run health care, but that I deeply distrust the US government to provide it? That might be closer to my actual position. There are a lot of problems with the American system. None of them can be solved with M4A as envisioned by, say, the Dem candidates of the past few months.

Not familiar with the Netherlands at all. What if I said I have no objection in principle to universal state-run health care, but that I deeply distrust the US government to provide it? That might be closer to my actual position. — fishfry

Damn. I should've asked this question pages ago because this fear I can understand, given the system you have.

Damn. I should've asked this question pages ago because this fear I can understand, given the system you have. — Benkei

I think I might not have realized this myself a few pages ago. I just can't see the US government pulling this off without making things much, much worse. Obamacare was sold with lies, did not "bend the cost curve" as they kept telling us, and you could not "keep your doctor," it was passed in a 100% partisan manner, self-employed people got financially destroyed, and it made premiums very expensive for healthy young people, causing them to have to forego health insurance altogether.

I would say that I have arrived at the highly defensible position that I under no circumstances want the current Democratic party running my health care. They are neither moral nor competent.

I don't live in the US, so I don't have to worry about it, personally. — Baden

Care to think about this a bit more? Rhetorical, I'm not looking for a reply. I'm thinking, though, that both us can think of reasons to worry, me within, you without.

I was just making the point that I don't stand to personally benefit from any change.

Perhaps I don't trust the government... — fishfry

Then you ought be more than willing to push the agenda of one who knows the issues and how to correct them... yet you rail against Bernie.

Odd, but common. That's what happens when someone buys into all the publicly available mis and disinformation...

I think I might not have realized this myself a few pages ago. I just can't see the US government pulling this off without making things much, much worse. Obamacare was sold with lies, did not "bend the cost curve" as they kept telling us, and you could not "keep your doctor," it was passed in a 100% partisan manner, self-employed people got financially destroyed, and it made premiums very expensive for healthy young people, causing them to have to forego health insurance altogether. — fishfry

That's just the beginning of it... It is a piece of legal collusion, not at all unlike internet service providers...

They literally divide up the country and do not interfere into the other people's territory. Reminds me of drug cartels, as well as street and/or biker gangs...

They are said to have the same sort of agreements between each other.

There is no competition.

Then you ought be more than willing to push the agenda of one who knows the issues and how to correct them... yet you rail against Bernie. — creativesoul

I like Bernie personally. It's just his politics I don't like. I've already said I'm not a socialist and don't support M4A. Not sure what I could add. Bernie's policies, which I did take the trouble to glance at on his website, are all big government programs. It's perfectly sensible to be against a "democratic socialist" if one distrusts big government. Yes I'm aware that Trump has implemented his own brand of big government, completely blowing up the budget. I'm not happy about that.

The investopedia link I sent does not paint such a black and white picture for Obamacare. It might be worth a read.

The investopedia link I sent does not paint such a black and white picture for Obamacare. It might be worth a read. — Benkei

I may have missed the link and didn't see it scrolling back a bit. If you live in a country with a competent, caring government, I envy you. I don't live in such a place. My sense of the US government is more aligned with the title of this book: A Government of Wolves: The Emerging American Police State. I haven't read the book but I've read many of John Whitehead's essays.

I really, really, really don't want Nancy Pelosi running every aspect of my health care. I really don't. I'll take my chance with the semi-free market and the miserable insurance companies and corporate health care we have now. That's the lesser of two evils, if I'm given a choice.

I do think Obamacare was as bad as reported, by the way. I was on Obamacare for a while. Very high premiums.

this one.

See; https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/071415/did-obamacare-make-premiums-go.asp — Benkei

See; https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/071415/did-obamacare-make-premiums-go.asp — Benkei

Thx.

I read the article. I don't believe a word of it. It says nothing about the effect on young people, who used to be able to get low cost plans that covered catastrophic situations. Now those plans are outlawed and the premiums for the young need to be far higher than the risk profile would suggest, in order to subsidize premiums for the old and sick. Many young people chose to pay the fine (or tax, if you're John Roberts) and forego being insured. This is bad policy. That article is cherry-picked and misleading according to my understanding of the issue.

Same issue with self-employed people. Allowing people to choose higher deductibles to keep their premiums down is a good deal for a lot of people. Outlawing that means that the self-employed got killed by Obamacare premiums. Most people with employer health coverage never see that aspect of things because to them their health care is inexpensive. They don't see the actual costs and they don't pay those costs. Self-employed people do.

That article obscured more than it revealed in my opinion.

But besides Joe Biden, who's defending Obamacare these days?