Do your own research. — fishfry

The burden is on you to support your sentiments about Obamacare and it's deleterious effects on the middle class, or not?

The rollout of Obamacare was a disaster of epic proportions. It utterly failed to bring down costs and sent premiums skyrocketing for self-employed people and small business owners.

Even if one believed in universal, mandatory, government-run health care -- is the US government the government you want in charge of your health care? I say no, and I'd point to the ongoing scandal of the VA as evidence. — fishfry

Yes, this is the crucial thing here.

What is actually possible?

The big-pharma and medical lobby hasn't just power because it gives money to politicians. It has power because in truth a lot of Americans are OK with the prevailing system. They have a job, they have a decent plan. Otherwise things would have changed already. Just whining about the stranglehold that the rich have of the political system doesn't cut it. There has to be the majority which is OK enough with the system.

We shouldn't forget that if Americans pay the most for health care, they also have the highest income on average. Some stats put median income or household disposable income of Norway, Luxembourg perhaps Switzerland higher than in the US. If you pay much, you also get much income also.

Besides, it's with Bernie as it was with the odd duck candidate Ron Paul some years ago. On the right the young libertarians got excited about him, but the real question would be just how much could on man change the whole structure?

We shouldn't forget that if Americans pay the most for health care, they also have the highest income on average. Some stats put median income or household disposable income of Norway, Luxembourg perhaps Switzerland higher than in the US. If you pay much, you also get much income also. — ssu

I don't actually defend the US system of health care. The corporate medical practices, the pill industrial complex, the waste and the bureaucracy. But our standard of care is very high and very available. I brought up the NHS recently and someone said I'm wrong or just arguing from one article I've found. I've heard bad stories of the NHS for years. The American system provides very high quality care to a lot of people. Some people are unfairly under-served. The question is how to deal with the bottom 25%, not blow up the system that's working for the 75%. In my opinion, of course. I realize we have in this forum many avid leftists who adhere essentially to the Marxian point of view. Myself I'm partial to Groucho.

The American system provides very high quality care to a lot of people. Some people are unfairly under-served. The question is how to deal with the bottom 25%, not blow up the system that's working for the 75%. — fishfry

Your joshing, yes?

Let's forget about the 25 percent and enjoy the fact that 75 percent were happy. Btw, another 25 percent of the 75 percent were on the verge of losing healthcare...

I want my cake and eat it too!

Your joshing, yes? — Shawn

Most Americans are perfectly happy with their health care.

Now this is where you say, "Do you have any evidence to back that up?" and I post a half dozen on-point links and someone else complains that they could look up crystal healing on Google and someone else complains that they don't like one of the authors. Like I say, slow Sunday. Hey Jesse endorsed Bernie so the Bernie fans should be happy today. Meanwhile Biden said that "We can only reelect Trump." While liberal publications frantically try to spin Joe's obvious cognitive issues as stuttering. It's to laugh.

Yes, the situation is quite tragic. But, let's not get depressed and apathetic or cynical. Ya?

Most Americans are perfectly happy with their health care. — fishfry

*Long fart noise*

Most Americans are perfectly happy with their health care.
— fishfry

*Long fart noise* — Maw

If you want to know why Trump is so popular, note how out of touch most leftists are about what's going on in this country. And so utterly dismissive of the possibility of ever finding out.

Yes, the situation is quite tragic. But, let's not get depressed and apathetic or cynical. Ya? — Shawn

The DNC just changed the upcoming debate format to a town hall with the public asking questions and Biden and Bernie being seated. The fix is in to hide Biden's infirmity.

Do any Dem voters want to tell me how long the Dems will be able to maintain this farce?

If you want to know why Trump is so popular, note how out of touch most leftists are about what's going on in this country. And so utterly dismissive of the possibility of ever finding out. — fishfry

I guess you missed the Gallup Poll link I included showing that Americans are not in fact "perfectly happy with their healthcare"

Nothing about this is new. Chomsky should come to mind with regards to all this fuckery going on in America.

I guess you missed the Gallup Poll link I included showing that Americans are not in fact "perfectly happy with their healthcare" — Maw

Disguised as a fart? All your utterances are thinly disguised farts.

Here's another Gallup poll to the contrary. You got a poll, I got a poll.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/245195/americans-rate-healthcare-quite-positively.aspx

You know, I want to emphasize this point. Most Americans are happy with their health care. The problems that need to be fixed are on the margin. The under-served for reasons of poverty or geography. So let's figure out how to fix the problems with the system. Don't blow up a system that's already working for most Americans.

Here's another Gallup poll to the contrary. You got a poll, I got a poll. — fishfry

Yeah per the article those positive ratings are primarily driven by age and income, surprise surprise. Not sure where "perfectly happy" is tho.

Yeah per the article those positive ratings are primarily driven by age and income, surprise surprise. Not sure where "perfectly happy" is tho. — Maw

Most people have jobs that include health insurance. They get medical plus dental and optometry services. They're happy as clams and never think twice about their health care costs because it's all free to them.

People on Medicare are happy because the public/private partnership makes the system work. A lot of people are on Obamacare and are moderate income so they get subsidies.

Some people fall through the cracks and don't have health care. You want to blow up a mostly functioning system rather than fix what's broken.

And again, even if you're right in principle, do you really think the federal government is competent enough to pull off such a huge transition? We lose all our wars, our social programs turn into welfare for bureaucrats and never lift anyone out of poverty. Do you personally want this government to be totally in charge of every aspect of your own personal health care? I can't imagine that.

So let's figure out how to fix the problems with the system. Don't blow up a system that's already working for most Americans. — fishfry

"Medicaid/Medicare Recipients Rate Coverage, Quality Most Positively"

How ironic

They get medical plus dental and optometry services. They're happy as clams and never think twice about their health care costs because it's all free to them. — fishfry

Are you not an American? I have health insurance through the company I work for and I still pay medical, dental and optometry through co-pays, deductibles, and whatever is deducted from my bi-monthly salary.

Are you not an American? I have health insurance through the company I work for and I still pay medical, dental and optometry through co-pays, deductibles, and whatever is deducted from my bi-monthly salary. — Maw

Are you happy with your health insurance? Yes or no, be honest.

Are you happy with your health insurance? Yes or no, be honest. — fishfry

Hard question to answer because I've only ever had top tier providers through employment because I'm fortunate to have a good job. Obviously most Americans don't have a similar experience. I also live in NYC so finding and getting to doctors, therapists, dentists, etc. that take my insurance is relatively easy, and I can't complain about the quality. That said, between various doctor/dentist/optometrist/psychologist/psychiatrist visits and medication in the last year I've probably paid over $3,000 out of pocket.

Hard question to answer because I've only ever had top tier providers through employment because I'm fortunate to have a good job. Obviously most Americans don't have a similar experience. I also live in NYC so finding and getting to doctors, therapists, dentists, etc. that take my insurance is relatively easy, and I can't complain about the quality. That said, between various doctor/dentist/optometrist/psychologist/psychiatrist visits and medication in the last year I've probably paid over $3,000 out of pocket. — Maw

I take that as a Yes. After all you'd pay way more than $3k if you had to pay for health insurance for all the third world peasants who desired to come here, as all Democratic candidates pledged to do at the first debate.

I wonder if we took a poll, what would the results be. If we asked everyone on this forum if they're happy with their health care, availability, price, and quality. I bet we'd get a lot of yesses.

@fishfry suffers from a particularly virulent form of LDS (left derangement syndrome). Red man = bad. Reading his posts at least gives an insight into how the powered and privileged have convinced much of the country that everything not in the interests of a tiny wealthy elite is "socialism" Mao! Stalin! Castro! :scream: There is no vaccine for that except the ability to think.

Sounds like the UK these days.

Prediction:

If Sanders doesn't get the nomination (if Biden is shoe-horned in), then Trump will win a second term.

This is arguably what happened in 2016... — VagabondSpectre

Yes, I would tend to agree with that assessment. History happening twice. The first time as comic tragedy. The second time as tragi-comedy. (Or vice versa).

I’m as opposed to Trump as always, but now I can really FEEL why he was elected, and why he might be again. The anger and frustration in the pit of the stomach that has no place to go except online forums and (every few years) the ballot box. Trump tapped into that Kundalini energy of voters, and drilled it like the biggest oil well ever discovered. And is drilling still. Bernie tapped into that too, though in a different way.

But how “Park Avenue” Donnie ever got to be the voice of the working class is a trick that would have amazed both George Orwell and Harry Houdini.

When huge American and multinational corporations have been using the enormous power of their own free speech to influence all those citizens that the corporations themselves take advantage of...

There's a big problem in the system... monetary corruption of politicians and tremendous corporate influence on public policy. Joe Biden and Obama and Hillary and all the rest of the 'establishment' people on both sides -republican and democrat - have and will continue to err on the side of the huge corporate profits. The only 'difference' between the two is talk... the actual policies that have been disastrous for so many Americans could have been put in place from either side... and were often put in place from both during the transfer of power or just prior to.

If Joe wins it will be more of the same. If Trump wins it will be more of the same.

Joe's a bit more palatable in general. — creativesoul

:up: Yep. I agree with that. The two parties are mirror images of each other. One hand washing the other. Good cop (Democratic party), bad cop (Republican). Trump is nauseating to me, but there’s at least one upside if he wins. The Democratic side would potentially be open for a takeover in four years by a Bernie follower. (Assuming Bernie has retired by then... )

Otherwise, it is time for other new parties to join the fray. Like a “United Progressive Party”. UPP... that’s kinda catchy... :grin:

I take that as a Yes. After all you'd pay way more than $3k if you had to pay for health insurance for all the third world peasants who desired to come here, as all Democratic candidates pledged to do at the first debate — fishfry

You asked me for an honest answer and you give a knowingly dishonest interpretation. Fuck off with this dumb shit and stick to spending your days watching the XFL.

Otherwise, it is time for other new parties to join the fray. Like a “United Progressive Party”. UPP... that’s kinda catchy... :grin: — 0 thru 9

:up: :up:

A deeply disingenuous point, which you'd understand if you knew the first thing about Medicare.

Medicare is a public/private partnership. Private insurance companies offer Medicare drug programs, Medicare supplemental insurance, and Medicare advantage. Those programs add flexibility and individual choice to Medicare. — fishfry

I think this response is disingenuous. I was illustrating that not everything the government does is awful, nor do the public view it that way. Now you want to say that the reason it's popular is because of the private aspect of it, or otherwise "people would hate it." Heads I win, tails you lose.

Nearly everything is mixed. So you can say it about anything: People like roads not because the government builds them but because they contract with private companies, etc.

Libraries are popular, too. So I guess that must be due to some private element as well?

The government is funded largely by taxes, which in a working society would be spent in ways that benefit the vast majority of Americans: public transportation, infrastructure, education, healthcare, etc. The basics. It's true that there's plenty to complain about, but the answer isn't to privatize everything. The push for privatization has in fact led to disasters.

The reasons our roads and bridges are falling apart, for example, isn't because it's government-run, but because it's underfunded. Which is a common tactic used by those who want to privatize an industry -- underfund it, watch it fail, then point to that failure and say "See, the government can't do anything right -- better give it over to private, unaccountable companies."

That strategy has succeeded. We're living the results. Meanwhile the neoliberal philosophy trickles down to working and middle class people like you, who continue to promote it with vigor. In this sense, one has to be in awe of the private sector.

Otherwise, it is time for other new parties to join the fray. Like a “United Progressive Party”. UPP... that’s kinda catchy... :grin:
— 0 thru 9
:up: :up: — 180 Proof

Thanks for your support! But this new fledgling party may need a place to meet for now. How big is your living room? :rofl:

I'm a big fan of Chomsky. Many of his positions I disagree with. On foreign policy I'm a Chomskyite all the way. And when it comes to knocking the New York Times, Chomsky is the one who's spent decades meticulously documenting their ruling class, warmongering soul. — fishfry

Yes of course, but he's also one of the press's biggest defenders. Criticizing our country or our press doesn't mean one hates or wants to destroy either. In fact, you criticize the things you love, especially when they start making huge mistakes.

Warren. — 180 Proof

Pretty curious on your thoughts now

Most Americans are perfectly happy with their health care. — fishfry

Hah!

:roll:

Warren.
— 180 Proof

Pretty curious on your thoughts now — Maw

She can only hurt Bernie by endorsing Biden and not help much, or at all, by endorsing Bernie. I won't be surprised if she waits till the nomination to endorse whomever is the nominee like she did in 2016. Other than that, Warren's now just another promising also-ran (wannabe) ...