So, to answer your question, yes, my current belief, and hypothesis of such (and that's all it is), is the... creator... was sentient. — Qwex

Gnostics have rejected such thinking because, like fractals, it becomes a never ending story with, as the ancients even said, one turtle standing on another and on and on and------

You get the idea and that is why I reject such thinking as a cop out.

That scenario has been used by Hollywood quite a bit. It is defined ad Gnostic thinking.

Regards
DL

Good luck in your thought-process.

Qwex — Qwex

Ditto.

Regards
DL

Then how did it become a part of Christian teachings? — BrianW

Well, people like Irenaeus and St. Augustine (and numerous others) were intimately involved in building up the Christian community, and teaching what the Gospels and St. Paul meant. Christianity didn't spring from Jesus' head like Athena did from Zeus's head. It was built up on a gospel foundation, and it was taught to people, and teaching involves elaboration. It wasn't created in a vacuum; there were various varieties of Christian thinking, some of them doctrinally incompatible with each other. There were also influences from the culture in which Christianity was developed.

narrative of salvation despite having been designed outside of original scriptural literature — BrianW

Well, I don't think its fair to say "outside of original scriptural literature". Rather, it was based on the scriptural literature. Look, the crucifixion was 'scandalous'. Here you have this man, Jesus, getting nailed up and killed. The scandal is that Jesus was thought to be God incarnate, (an idea worked out after his death), so an extraordinary scandalous event requires an extraordinary explanation, The solution was the Lamb of God sacrificed (like lambs were sacrificed in the temple) to redeem a sinful world.

All this may be frustrating, because people tend to think there was a straight line from Jesus to the Church as they know it. There is a line, but it isn't all that straight forward.

Over time, the Church elaborated its theology. That's what normally happens in religion -- theology is developed over time.

Was Jesus born with Original Sin? — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Isn't basic Christian doctrine that Jesus was without sin?

Could these facts be why the Jews have no Original Sin concept in their religion? — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Jews believe people are intrinsically good but can be misled to evil. At least that's what I was taught. I think Jews don't subscribe to Christian doctrine for the same reasons Christians reject Hindu doctrine.

Is that also why Jews rejected Jesus as their messiah, or did they just recognize the immorality of anyone using a scapegoat and the abdication of one’s responsibility for their actions, which is against all moral legal systems? — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Jews generally believe the resurrection story is horseshit, so for that reason they reject that Jesus was the Messiah. Don't get me wrong, there's plenty of Jewish horseshit too, from the ark to the splitting of the sea, but the Jesus thing I suppose was just a bit much.

What then to do about
This Jesus mania
Miracle wonderman
Hero of fools?

No riots, no army,
No fighting, no slogans?
One thing I'll say for him:
Jesus is cool.

--------------

I read this above page of posts, and it turns out, that the men and persons who created Christianity, were just as much inept at creating it as God was in creating the world.

So in a way the Fathers of Christianity were consistent in complying with the scirptures: Man WAS created in the image of god. Both man and God are lousy planners and even worse than that at executing the plans.

I do not see where anyone noted what (the) original sin is. My bad if I missed it- would someone kindly point me to it? Or if that hasn't been done, will someone provide? Because it is not clear to me that anyone so far knows what it is.

I do not see where anyone noted what (the) original sin is. My bad if I missed it- would someone kindly point me to it? Or if that hasn't been done, will someone provide? Because it is not clear to me that anyone so far knows what it is. — tim wood

Eating from the Tree of Knowledge of What is Good and What is Evil. It’s been a debate for millennia what this means. Personally I think it was the realization that humankind could modify nature to our own liking, setting down roots in particular settings, and starting civilization. Just look at the mess this has gotten us in (not to mention the fall of every other empire in history). We think we can tame nature, but we were always meant to live in the Garden of Eden (from which God expelled us, or rather we expelled ourselves).

I know nothing different from what you've written. But does it seem to you as it seems to me that a) the disobedience that preceded the ingestion was also a problem, and b) that to be the being that God created meant that we would eat from that tree?

Well, I don’t think the ancient Hebrews were genius philosophers. There is wisdom in the myths, but don’t expect them to be ironclad.

Jesus was a liberal/conservative hybrid. He taught us peace and love but at the same time condemned those who didn’t follow the Laws of Moses and who didn’t repent.

Also, Nixon was more of a liberal than Obama.

Trump, on the other hand, is more like Judas.

:lol:

Bitter Crank — Bitter Crank

FYI.

The original Jewish messianic myth did not include anything about the forgiveness of sin.

The sacrificed angel/Jesus was to return and lead the people out of bondage. That was it.

Regards
DL

Isn't basic Christian doctrine that Jesus was without sin? — Hanover

It depends on which denomination, but basically, yes. That condition is negated though when they say that all humans are born with Original Sin, and they say that Jesus had a human side. That contradiction is what I am trying to get past.

Jews believe people are intrinsically good but can be misled to evil. At least that's what I was taught. — Hanover

A good and true teaching, although I would not say mislead. I would say that we must do some evil as we evolve. We must both compete and cooperate and when we compete, we create losers and victims.
Competition and ironically evolution is the root of all human to human evil. That evil is a small part of the greater good of man continuing to evolve.

We are collectively mitigating those evils nicely.

Jews generally believe the resurrection story is horseshit, so for that reason they reject that Jesus was the Messiah. Don't get me wrong, there's plenty of Jewish horseshit too, from the ark to the splitting of the sea, but the Jesus thing I suppose was just a bit much. — Hanover

You prover that Jews are more intelligent thinkers than the average Christian literalist fool.

That is why Jews, wisely, follow the oral traditions and put man above god. It continues to strive both for and against god.

If Jesus would have followed the actual Jewish myth and returned to lead Jewry, all Jews would be Christian.

Regards
DL

What then to do about
This Jesus mania — god must be atheist

Make him human because as a god, he was ruined the moment the Trinity concept tied him to a genocidal son murdering prick of a god.

That bond must end before Jesus becomes half way worthy of us.

We would still have to tweak some of his more immoral tenets but at least a new Jesus archetype could then be followed. Rome created the one we know and we can improve on that immoral archetype.

Regards
DL

Was Jesus born with Original Sin?
...

If not, then he had no human side and was pure god — Gnostic Christian Bishop

That does not follow. Three other humans are said to have been born without original sin: Adam&Eve (who committed the original sin) and Mary (mother of Jesus).

I do not see where anyone noted what (the) original sin is. My bad if I missed it- would someone kindly point me to it? Or if that hasn't been done, will someone provide? Because it is not clear to me that anyone so far knows what it is. — tim wood

Since Eve was deceived into eating from the tree of knowledge, god exonerated her and the Original Sin was cause by Adam accepting knowledge from Eve.

Poor thinkers say they ate an apple, which is a simplified version of, ---- they did not obey.

Regards
DL

That does not follow. Three other humans are said to have been born without original sin: Adam&Eve (who committed the original sin) and Mary (mother of Jesus). — Relativist

And as the legend goes, Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. It could be argued that this is how he was without sin. Mary, on the other hand, is just said to have found favor with God. Adam & Eve were created innocent, then thought they knew better than God. If there is a God (I believe so), then most of us are guilty of this. My conception of God is quite different than what’s portrayed in most of the Bible, though.

Just look at the mess this has gotten us in — Noah Te Stroete

??

What mess?

Is a populations first duty not to reproduce and grow the population? Is that not what we have done?

Sure we might have done it in a better way but as far as a natural species goes, we are doing great.
If you look at the stats for the world, you will see that most of the markers for evil are down and that things are going great.

Global climate change will be our Rubicon and will determine our collective fate in theses days of mass extinctions.

Regards
DL

Global climate change will be our Rubicon and will determine our collective fate in theses days of mass extinctions. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

We are the cause of the current mass extinction. Sooner or later, the ecosystem will fail to sustain us. I’d certainly call this a mess.

But does it seem to you as it seems to me that a) the disobedience that preceded the ingestion was also a problem, — tim wood

The first disobedience we see in the bible is A & E not reproducing way back in Gen 1. They disobey and consume knowledge in Gen 3.

Paradoxically, they could not obey in god in Gen1 because they were too stupid to even know they were naked or how to reproduce. They needed the knowledge that got them kicked out of Eden.

God had them coming and going and that is why many see Eden as a set up by prick of a god.

Regards
DL

Well, I don’t think the ancient Hebrews were genius philosophers. — Noah Te Stroete

The non-literalist ancients were brighter than the literalist fools that now populate Christianity and Islam.

They were a damn site more moral as well.

Regards
DL

He taught us peace and love but at the same time condemned those who didn’t follow the Laws of Moses and who didn’t repent. — Noah Te Stroete

I have not come to bring peace, but war. I adlib Jesus and thus refute your statement.

He was also against the divorce laws of Moses and would have implemented an even more disgusting no divorce policy.

Some of the moral tenets put into Jesus by Rome were ok. Many were not moral tenets at all.

Regards
DL

I think you’re the one who is taking the myth literally. Ancient people had an oral tradition, myths that taught through metaphor and morals. The smart ones certainly didn’t take their stories literally. Likewise today. They were most likely passing down a history lesson before there was written language (illustration of truths through fiction are easier to pass down through oral tradition than brute facts). They were telling a story from their hunter-gatherer history (Garden of Eden). Perhaps the dumb ones thought that the original sin was sex. The ones telling the stories? I believe most of them had more insight than you give them credit for.

That does not follow. Three other humans are said to have been born without original sin: Adam&Eve (who committed the original sin) and Mary (mother of Jesus). — Relativist

I will give you A & E, of course, as they were the originators in the Christian concept of Original Sin that reversed the more correct Jewish view of Original Virtue.

As to Mary, she was not even a virgin if the translators are correct and if wrong on that, they are likely wrong elsewhere.

Get the appropriate quote please as I do not recall Mary being named an exception to what is otherwise a universal condition.

Regards
DL

I have not come to bring peace, but war. I adlib Jesus and thus refute your statement.

He was also against the divorce laws of Moses and would have implemented an even more disgusting no divorce policy.

Some of the moral tenets put into Jesus by Rome were ok. Many were not moral tenets at all. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

You really have no imagination. As @StreetlightX once said, you’re a “fucking retard.”

Of course the Roman Catholic Church, and by extension all of the sects that followed their example, is self-serving and corrupt. I don’t think there are many people here who would deny that. Who is your audience exactly?

then thought they knew better than God. If there is a God (I believe so), then most of us are guilty of this. — Noah Te Stroete

Where is it written that they thought they were better than god?

I see them more as following scriptures, which you should see as a good thing.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

They tested/thought about god command and decided that they did not want to remain stupid and with their eyes closed and wisely chose education over stupidity and innocent ignorance of most things.

They chose to gain the knowledge of reproduction.

They, as Jewish traditions say, graduated from school as we all should want to do.

Regards
DL

The Serpent in Genesis tempted Adam & Eve, claiming they would gain the knowledge of God. I thought you would know that.