What is with American jingoism? — Wallows

To my view, American jingoism flows from profound anxiety stemming from a visceral fear of social ostracism - compounded by Pascal's "inability to sit quietly alone in a room" - to anxiety-tempering narcissism to the lusty thrill and anxiety-obliteration of collective narcissism fueled by ignorance, decrepit critical thinking skills and an unreasoning, unmanageable desire to substitute civil religion for the loss of Christ.

These notions flow from Freud to Fromm to sociologist Robert Bellah, with many sane and serious voices also crying in the wilderness in-between.

To my view, American jingoism flows from profound anxiety stemming from a visceral fear of social ostracism - compounded by Pascal's "inability to sit quietly alone in a room" - to anxiety-tempering narcissism to the lusty thrill and anxiety-obliteration of collective narcissism fueled by ignorance, decrepit critical thinking skills and an unreasoning, unmanageable desire to substitute civil religion for the loss of Christ.

These notions flow from Freud to Fromm to sociologist Robert Bellah, with many sane and serious voices also crying in the wilderness in-between. — ZzzoneiroCosm

Right, and instills a groupthink mentality of sorts, that is conflated with patriotism to a large degree. Yes?

Yes. Groupthink: The orgiastic thrill of binding one's narcissism to a roaring crowd. That quashing of an essential anxiety in the synchronicity of a coliseum frenzy. Trump qua God qua missing-Christ a la Freud's "ego ideal." (See Group Psychology and the Analysis of the Ego)

Yes. Groupthink: The orgiastic thrill of binding one's narcissism to a roaring crowd. That quashing of an essential anxiety in the synchronicity of a coliseum frenzy. Trump qua God qua missing-Christ a la Freud's "ego ideal." (See Group Psychology and the Analysis of the Ego) — ZzzoneiroCosm

You should see what's happening to the religious right in the US. They honest to God, think this guy is a prophet or something sent by God to fix a falling empire. Truth and all that jazz.

I've seen it. I follow a couple of Trump pages on Facebook.

I've seen it. I follow a couple of Trump pages on Facebook. — ZzzoneiroCosm

Pray! The end is nigh!

Looking forward to it. At any rate, the end is always pretty nigh.

Looking forward to it. At any rate, the end is always pretty nigh. — ZzzoneiroCosm

:fear:

There is no quote that says "I want him in a public box". — NOS4A2

It's Taylor quoting sondland. The quote is present in Taylor's personal notes, and he affirmed their accuracy under oath.

https://youtu.be/BpNl3b1SYtc?t=12279

So we're back to my question: Is Taylor confused or lying about the marching orders he received from Sondland? Is Sondland confused about the marching orders he received from Trump?

It seems like someone is either lying or incredibly stupid, and it might be worth continuing the inquiry to find out who the liars are, right?

A man will face years in prison because he made mistakes during the process of an investigation of which there is no underlying crime. — NOS4A2

There are reasons why those mistakes, of lying and witness tampering were made. Those mistakes are only made when the person is already guilty.

It's Taylor quoting sondland. The quote is present in Taylor's personal notes, and he affirmed their accuracy under oath.

https://youtu.be/BpNl3b1SYtc?t=12279

So we're back to my question: Is Taylor confused or lying about the marching orders he received from Sondland? Is Sondland confused about the marching orders he received from Trump?

It seems like someone is either lying or incredibly stupid, and it might be worth continuing the inquiry to find out who the liars are, right?

Taylor affirmed no such quote because no one said “I want Zelensky in a public box”. So we can quote it properly, or not at all. What we cannot do is pretend people said something when they didn’t.

My guess is stupid, but yes, you’re right. For all I know Trump and Co. are lying. But there is no evidence of the motives Dems have attributed to Trump. There is no evidence of any crime. These so-called public announcements never occurred. There was no pressure, as stated by the alleged victim of the blackmail himself. Ukraine has its aid. Because there is no crime and because they do not know Trump’s motives, but pretend so anyway in what can only be described as a show trial, we know they are knowingly lying.

That’s fair. Americans often do take offence to president bashing, especially from people who live in countries that benefit from American protection, spitting on the man who watches over them while they sleep.

I get it though. Trump is as American as apple pie. He’s the man of reality TV, the beauty pageant, professional wrestling and the casino. This offends a certain quasi-European sensibility, in this case, a legion of technocrats and bureaucrats who have not been able to accomplish half of what Trump has and on so little. Trump’s success refutes their relevance.

Taylor affirmed no such quote because no one said “I want Zelensky in a public box”. So we can quote it properly, or not at all. What we cannot do is pretend people said something when they didn’t. — NOS4A2

Earlier in the testimony, the counselor asked Taylor why certain terms, including "public box", were in quotation marks, and Taylor stated that everything in quotation marks were actually used in the conversation the notes pertained to. Maybe he Sondland did not state verbatim "Trump wants the Ukranian president in a public box", but the term public box was in fact used, and Taylor's understanding of Sondland's usage was in fact that Trump wanted Zelensky in a public box by committing publicly to investigations.

So yes, "public box" is a term Sondland used. Taylor has provided sworn testimony that "public box" did in fact come out of Sondland's mouth, and also that it was in a conversation about (Sondland's interpretation of) WH/Trump intentions.

So I'll ask yet again, has ambassador Taylor perjured himself (is he a liar)? Or was Sondland just confused?

new conspiracy theory: trump is telling the truth and the entire justice system, congress, and media, are all in a giant conspiracy against him.

i call this new conspiracy theory: trump supporter.

who have not been able to accomplish half of what Trump has and on so little. Trump’s success refutes their relevance. — NOS4A2

Tell us what Trump has accomplished.

For all I know Trump and Co. are lying. But there is no evidence of the motives Dems have attributed to Trump. — NOS4A2

The truth will be in the history books. Typically 20 or 30 years later.

I get it though. Trump is as American as apple pie. He’s the man of reality TV, the beauty pageant, professional wrestling and the casino. This offends a certain quasi-European sensibility, in this case, a legion of technocrats and bureaucrats who have not been able to accomplish half of what Trump has and on so little. — NOS4A2

What on Earth are you talking about? That what you say doesn't matter at all. Some leftist bashing US materialism isn't how actually Europeans view the US or it's Presidents. It's the goddam political actions the administration makes. Or do you have this view that Europeans just hate America or what? I think then you don't get it.

First of all, I only have to watch a session with Trump and Putin answering questions about their summit in Helsinki to see that everything isn't at all right. Similar peculiar behavior US politicians might show when to talking to AIPAC or when visiting Israel. Even then they don't parrot the Israeli line and do occasionally have different ideas. Otherwise, they usually bring up US foreign policy and US agenda, not conform and comply with an obvious adversary's agenda. It simply isn't NORMAL. But Trump has been so fixated with Putin right from the start it really is strange.

There simply is too much of this bullshit with Trump. Just to give one example from many, things like the only thing that the Trump team wanted to change during the Republican national convention was the policy to give arms to Ukraine. Really? That's the thing? I remember when it happened, it was actually immediately discussed. There's just a ton of similar stuff like this.

Naturally the whole administration didn't and hasn't gone with the Pro-Putin line. In fact all the pro-Russian people were kicked out of the Trump administration immediately and surely generals like Mattis or McMasters had nothing to do with this. Basically it's left to Tweeter-in-Chief to make these strange gaffes like wanting to create a joint US-Russian Join Cyber Unit Security Unit. Trump usually has had to backtrack with these silly ideas (as he did with the Join Cyber Unit), but the effort ought to be noticed.

That’s the problem I’ve been speaking about during the entirety of my participation in this thread: the word-policing, the consideration of the president’s words and the subsequent doom-mongering that is sure to follow. No, it certainly isn’t normal the way the president speaks, but considering that normal was the politically-correct PR speak of men trained in writing and giving speeches, this is exactly what we wanted. We don’t want varnish and lullabies and the public/private views of career politicians. We want to know what the president is thinking, whether he is right or wrong, silly ideas or not.

That’s the problem, I think, is Trump’s expressions strikes fear into people who would rather not think about politics, but would much rather be lulled by glittering generalities and euphemism. People are thinking about politics now, some for the first time in their lives.

We want to know what the president is thinking, — NOS4A2

You're not an American, dont worry about it.

You're not an American, dont worry about it.

And you’re ignorant, so I’m not worried at all.

And you’re ignorant, so I’m not worried at all. — NOS4A2

That doesn't even make sense. :nerd:

Simple English doesn’t make sense to you? Yikes.

considering that normal was the politically-correct PR speak of men trained in writing and giving speeches, this is exactly what we wanted. We don’t want varnish and lullabies and the public/private views of career politicians. We want to know what the president is thinking, whether he is right or wrong, silly ideas or not. — NOS4A2

One can be a good communicator, but in truth the ACTUAL POLICIES are what matter. And people don't usually follow the actual policies implemented. As long as the economy is doing for them OK, it doesn't actually matter so much what the administration is actually doing.

Besides, the simply fact is that government policies are extensive complex and have to take into account many issues and details, and explaining them is an arduous task for the listener to listen and understand.

For Trump to say "I'll build a wall and Mexico will pay for it" is a great line to quote when drinking beer with friends and talking in an unserious way. But as A POLICY it doesn't simply fly. Mexico hasn't paid and won't pay and building concrete barrier to mostly an emptydesert that usually is circumvented by airports or long coasts is an extremely lousy way to spend taxes. It's truly just a monument, not an effective policy. But who cares about actual reality, when then the catchphrase was so awesome to many?

One can be a good communicator, but in truth the ACTUAL POLICIES are what matter. And people don't usually follow the actual policies implemented. As long as the economy is doing for them OK, it doesn't actually matter so much what the administration is actually doing.

Besides, the simply fact is that government policies are extensive complex and have to take into account many issues and details, and explaining them is an arduous task for the listener to listen and understand.

For Trump to say "I'll build a wall and Mexico will pay for it" is a great line to quote when drinking beer with friends and talking in an unserious way. But as A POLICY it doesn't simply fly. Mexico hasn't paid and won't pay and building concrete barrier to mostly an emptydesert that usually is circumvented by airports or long coasts is an extremely lousy way to spend taxes. It's truly just a monument, not an effective policy. But who cares about actual reality, when then the catchphrase was so awesome to many?

Mexico is doing quite a bit along the border. They recently sent 15,000 troops there to slow northern migration at great expense. Sure they aren’t handing over cash for a wall, but they are now doing their part where they weren’t before. It’s working. So it turns out to be a great policy.

There is a difference between illegal immigration through an official point of entry and hopping over a border. When you come through an official point of entry you go through security and show documentation. When you hop a border there is no security check nor documents provided. So equivocating between border-hopping and going through an official point of entry is silly. But then again, who cares about actual reality?

Believing in human races makes one a racist. Saying what's on your mind makes one a good president. There seems to be a pattern here of utterly inadequate criteria at work...

So equivocating between border-hopping and going through an official point of entry is silly. But then again, who cares about actual reality? — NOS4A2

Because Illegal Immigration mostly happens through official points of entry! So yes, who does care about actual reality?

These immigrants, who enter countries legally on student, tourist, or work visas and then stay past their visa’s expiration date, are often overlooked in the discussion of illegal immigration. But in the past 10 years, visa overstays in the United States have outnumbered border crossings by a ratio of about 2 to 1

See The Real Illegal Immigration Crisis Isn’t on the Southern Border

Rhetoric and actual implementation of effective policies are two different things.

Because Illegal Immigration mostly happens through official points of entry! So yes, who does care about actual reality?

Again, the equivocating is silly. If you overstay a visa you’ve gone through the necessary security points and shown documents. If you hop a border you’ve avoided going through security and showing documents. The wall is to hinder the ones who hop the border, not the ones who overstay their visas.

We want to know what the president is thinking, whether he is right or wrong, silly ideas or not. — NOS4A2

Lies and deceit do not tell others what you are thinking. And if lies and deceit are what makes other politicians bad, Trump is clearly not any better. In fact he seems to lie and deceive even more that the average politician. He's taken politics to a new low.

Talk about draining the swamp!

Trump's Presidency runs on a platform of bigotry, ill-informed choices, and fear.

Trump has taken every action he deems to be legal for him to take in order to impede the investigation into himself.

It doesn't matter if he thinks it's unconstitutional, because it's following those guidelines precisely...

Paul Manafort is evidence enough to warrant looking. The Republican change in platform no longer arming the rebels in Ukraine is another. Paul Manfort's immediate departure afterwards is another. The Trump tower meeting, yet another. The recent quid pro quo with Ukranian official is just an extension of the corruption in the form of looking for someone to return a favor(the disarming of the rebels), and withholding aid unless one does so.

Trump has taken every action he deems he can get away with to obstruct the investigation.