And a third question, which is the fundamental problem of a missionary: if faith is untouched by reason and by the intellect, how can you impress reasonable people? — god must be atheist

You can't. Fortunately, some believers have not completely taken leave of their reason. I have found at least one door-knocking Jehovah's Witness, who will engage in a reason-based dialog. I haven't convinced him that the bible-god is man-made, but I have enjoyed our discussions.

BTW, technically, I am an A-Theist. But I prefer Agnostic-Deist. The existence of transcendent G*D is unprovable by empirical methods, but can be approached by logical methods. I don't know for sure that my hypothetical First Cause exists. But I am convinced that there are only two reasonable explanations for the existence of our world of matter & minds : 1> a spontaneous random accident (statistically a Black Swan), or 2> the intentional act of an eternal self-existent Mind (statistically, incalculable due to lack of quantifiable evidence). Hence, #2 requires not slavish Faith, but an intrepid Leap of Logic. :smile:

Or in other words wisdom is not about being really clever and using logic, but being yourself in the world. — Punshhh

This is the first time someone called me wise. I am being myself in the world.

Every creature, every stone, every tapeworm, every star is wise. Even my wife**.

Wow.

**Had she heard you call her wise, she'd hit you with a frying pan in the head, with these words: "What??? ME?? Wise? Why, you little slouch, I'll teach you wise!"

Hence, #2 requires not slavish Faith, but an intrepid Leap of Logic. — Gnomon

What does an intrepid leap of logic require? :-) Bravery? Aye, there is the rub. I'm a chicken, in a sheepskin coat.

But I was not referring to Gods, I was referring to the spiritual texts and ideology taught in those religions. — Punshhh

Christianity, the biggest and meanest :-) western religion has spiritual texts called the Bible,and the ideology taught in those are God worshirp, and such. I don't know if it is possible to separate god worship and ideology in W religions in to god worship and something else than god worship.

In eastern religions, you can tell me anything possible, or even impossible, because I don't know them.

I don't know for sure that my hypothetical First Cause exists. — Gnomon

The Eternal/Timeless/Permanent First Cause as Capability/Possibility/Potential/Energy has to be mandatory, given no infinite regress, that there is something, and that 'Nothing' hasn't anything to it for anything to come out of 'it'. Spontaneous is still available but there still needs to be the capability for it.

The Permanent First Cause has no direction able to be put into it, so it really can't know anything. Its supposed nebluous nature, then, being not anything in particular is a superposition of all possible paths, as like towards a multiverse, which seems to be the cleanest solution, not requiring an intelligence that really shouldn't be there since that violates the fundamental art by having parts in a system.

As it took 13 billion years for life to form, the universe seems to be just plodding along slowly and naturally.

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What does an intrepid leap of logic require? — god must be atheist

It requires deductive reasoning from available (conditional) evidence to logical conclusions. But the conclusions are only as true as the premises. If you don't like my amateur premises, check-out the expert references.

Philosophers, who deal with metaphysical theories rather than physical facts, must have the courage to make a leap into logical probabilities.

Deductive Reasoning : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deductive_reasoning

The Permanent First Cause has no direction able to be put into it, so it really can't know anything. Its supposed nebluous nature, then, being not anything in particular is a superposition of all possible paths, as like towards a multiverse, which seems to be the cleanest solution, not requiring an intelligence that really shouldn't be there since that violates the fundamental art by having parts in a system. — PoeticUniverse

You are describing random Chaos, which the Greeks proposed as the source of our Cosmos. But, as the presumed eternal-infinite source-of-all-things the unbounded Prime Cause must, by definition, encompass all possibilities, including all directions, and intentions. There are no patterns or directions, no change or novelty in pure static randomness. Darwin understood this; which is why his theory proposed Random Mutations guided by Natural Selection as the formula for new species.

In Evolution, what gives direction to random mutations is Selection according to some criteria (such as fitness for a niche or function). So, lacking purpose (goals, criteria) an accidental Multiverse would wander blindly forever before stumbling on the magic formula for the initial conditions plus matter, energy, life & mind that we find in our world. But, an intentional Creator could imagine an infinity of possible worlds, from which to select one to actualize. Can you imagine an Intentional Omniverse? That's what I call "G*D".

Cynical attitudes toward the "blind watchmaker" of Evolution are assuming a maker who intended to create perfection immediately, as a Garden of Eden. Yet, since our world is obviously not perfect, but progressing, we may infer that it is developing toward some more complete future state. For those who deny any progress in evolution, I can only conclude that they are "blind" to long-term trends in historical patterns. See Progressophobia and Cosmic Progression Chart below.

So, whether you prefer to speculate about a nebulous hypothetical eternal Omniverse, or the infinite potential of Eternal BEING, all things that are found in Reality (the Effect) must be possible in the Source (First Cause). Our world, according to quantum physics, is essentially mathematical information, and the permutations of that cosmic code (analogous to DNA) have resulted, not just in quantitative physical things, but qualitative metaphysical forms of Life, Mind, and Love. A random accidental Omniverse, without direction, would be impotent. That's why I insist that G*D must include the power of Intention, in order to Cause anything. Whether that requirement includes Knowing, I'll leave you to figure out. :smile:


Designed to Evolve : http://bothandblog5.enformationism.info/page8.html
Cosmic Progression : http://bothandblog3.enformationism.info/page28.html
Progressophobia : http://bothandblog2.enformationism.info/page9.html

PS___ When you have plenty of time, I have an explanation for how an eternal Whole can have "parts of the system". Hint : frame of reference.

I can only conclude that we have a long way to go to see the light at the end of the teleological tunnel--if we live to see it on this planet. i have my very grave doubts that homo sapiens will. G-d's teleology may very well have to go on without us, and our species chalked up to a failed experiment. — uncanni

Oh, ye of little faith! :smile:

Check out the Cosmic Progression Chart in the previous post.

Note : Nature progresses arithmetically, but Culture progresses exponentially.

Multiverse would wander blindly forever before stumbling on the magic formula for the initial conditions plus matter, energy, life & mind that we find in our world. — Gnomon

It has all the time in the World, and more, ha, ha.

When you have plenty of time, I have an explanation for how an eternal Whole can have parts of the system. — Gnomon

I have the time in the Cosmos since I'm retired.

the light at the end of the teleological tunnel — uncanni

Hope it's not a White Hole coming at us!

Our world, according to quantum physics, is essentially mathematical information, and the permutations of that cosmic code (analogous to DNA) have resulted, not just in quantitative physical things, but qualitative metaphysical forms of Life, Mind, and Love. — Gnomon

This is one of the TOEs being developed at our research center in Timbuktu (we'll send a camel for you) and it has a repair attempt going forth, too, since the universe is not doing so well:

Butterflies On the Edge of Forever

The Great Extinguisher Problem

Our planet is very good at promoting life,
But it is much better at extinguishing it.
Of the billions upon billions of living things,
99.99% are no longer around here living.

The human race had been degenerating, for the CMBR antenna that broadcasts our universal reality show had long been out of whack, as had been discovered in ThePhilosophyForum as part of the true Theory of Everything.

So, some funding was obtained from a top-secret government organization, and a poll was held. Member Nobody Nowhere was chosen as the “no one” most likely to succeed in whacking the transmitter back into adjustment, for he could operate with scarce a trace of not being there.

Background:
The corrupted DNA of the Universe:

No one yet fully understands the irreducible complexity of the DNA double helix, which is the template for all carbon based life. It is so complex that the slightest change along the myriad of interrelated ladder of events causes the total collapse of the organism. DNA is made of four nucleotides arranged in such a way that a large number of perfectly cascading events form a living thinking life form.

Now, what about the DNA at the universal level?

*** TOP SECRET *** EYES ONLY *** TOP SECRET ***

Likewise, a much more complex universal DNA template is the common thread of a much greater type of exponentially encrypted digital code of Everything which forms our entire universe, generating it in a virtual holographic way, that is:

The Infinite radiates through a DNA matrix,
Using Information or Energy to create
The Cosmic Microwave antenna, which broadcasts
Interference patterns of virtual reality.

The problem was that the celestial music of the spheres had fallen out of tune.

This is the first time someone called me wise. I am being myself in the world.

You're babbling at bit here.

But seriously, are you really yourself in the world? Or are you simply a culturally conditioned persona, believing a collection of pieces of information given you by imperfect people in your environment?

Christianity, the biggest and meanest :-) western religion has spiritual texts called the Bible,and the ideology taught in those are God worshirp, and such. I don't know if it is possible to separate god worship and ideology in W religions in to god worship and something else than god worship.

In eastern religions, you can tell me anything possible, or even impossible, because I don't know them.

I wasn't referring to Christianity, but even there, there is a large body of spiritual teaching and it's not all about worship.

In reference to Eastern religions, there is the system of Yoga in Hinduism and meditation on Nirvana in Bhuddism and a vast body of work about spiritual personal development.

The Permanent First Cause has no direction able to be put into it, so it really can't know anything. Its supposed nebluous nature, then, being not anything in particular is a superposition of all possible paths, as like towards a multiverse, which seems to be the cleanest solution, not requiring an intelligence that really shouldn't be there since that violates the fundamental art by having parts in a system.

This is speculation, I think you are speculating in the right direction, but none of it can be confirmed. Particularly the bit in bold, we really can't say this.

We are in the middle of the cosmic exhalation. Upon inhalation, all matter will recede into black holes, themselves receding into even larger ones until all is converged, which is when G_d will sneeze again, starting the next big bang. The womb of the black hole will give birth.

It's true I have little faith in humnakind, but I have infinite faith in the cosmos, i.e., mother nature.

in Timbuktu (we'll send a camel for you) — PoeticUniverse

I want to go, too. Bamako, Mali!!! I want to go!!!!!!!

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Our planet is very good at promoting life,
But it is much better at extinguishing it.
Of the billions upon billions of living things,
99.99% are no longer around here living. — PoeticUniverse

That is exactly what you would expect if our world was not intended to be a perfect Garden of Eden, but instead an experiment in freedom. If G*D is eternal-infinite, then there is no time or room to grow, to develop, to improve. But if all things are possible, given unlimited time & space, then G*D could make room internally, so to speak, for a finite bubble universe that is free to start from nothing (Singularity) and develop into something (Seity). Within the limits of space-time, it is programmed to explore all possibilities (random mutations) guided only by natural laws (selection criteria). The mutant entities that don't meet the criteria of fitness for G*D's purpose are abandoned (extinction). Imagine Edison trying hundreds of permutations for his goal of creating a practical electric light. Where are those failures now? His arduous experiment, although fraught with failures, was a success. The dark world has been transformed by his creation.

Note 1 : Philosophers tend to compare Reality with Ideality, and not surprisingly, find reality to be less than ideal. A pragmatic attitude would make the best of what-is, without unrealistically pining for what-ought-to-be.

Note 2. Cynicism is what passes for sophistication among many intellectuals. Romanticism is the refuge of those sensitive souls who find reality unbearably bleak. A better alternative is not Pollyanna optimism, but up-beat get-er-done Pragmatism.

Note 3 : The Eternal could create a perfect world, but it would be predestined. And what's the point of that? Unpredictable Freedom is more Fun. :smile:

The human race had been degenerating, — PoeticUniverse

That is an erroneous perception, due in part to the popular media's penchant for reporting nasty gossip and bad news. "if it bleeds, it leads". But in reality, the human race is ethically and technically superior to the race of upright apes that walked out of Africa.

The Better Angels of Our Nature : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Better_Angels_of_Our_Nature
The Moral Arc : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moral_Arc

The problem was that the celestial music of the spheres had fallen out of tune. — PoeticUniverse

No. The problem is that a percentage of humanity is tone-deaf. The celestial symphony continues to play magnificently, but cynical misanthropes focus on the down notes and miss the high notes.

Cheer up! The dismal science of Misanthropy focuses on the losses, and fails to enjoy the gains. :wink:

But there are moments during each day, when one perceives the true reality, or the minutist details of Mother Nature at work. Then one is immensely-comforted, knowing that mother nature will arrive at the inhalation point, when all matter must return to be re-combined and re-dispursed. New Baby, New Big Bang. — uncanni

What? Have you given-up on "true reality", and place your hope in a new reality? That's the attitude of pessimistic Christians, who are willing to abandon the real world to Satan, and grimly live on faith in a new Heaven or a new Earth in some sublime perfect future. What makes you think the New Big Bang will be any better than the old one?

Why not try to make an imperfect situation better? That is what Pragmatists do, despite disappointments. :smile:

It's true I have little faith in humnakind, but I have infinite faith in the cosmos, i.e., mother nature. — uncanni

If humans are the black sheep of Mother Nature's family, why do you have faith in such a bad mother? If the current Cosmos is such a failure, why imagine that it will turn-out right the next time? Unless you expect to experience that future perfect Cosmos, why not make the best of the one you have in hand? :cool:

I want to go!!!!!!! — uncanni

We need you; look for a flying camel on your lawn. Don't mention this at your job. Many governments and others are after our TOE information; our refuge is tenuous; eventually, we're going to have to join up with a decent and suitable paramilitary organization of martial artists.

" Interference patterns of virtual reality" are ideological misconceptions, mystfications of authentic reality. They consist of consumerism, global capitalism, corporate sodom-and-gomorrahism, post-imperialism, etc. — uncanni

We will soon be heading back in time to better tune the Cosmic DNA antenna. It's do or die!!!

Butter flies like a banana, so Nobody Nowhere quickly prepared to step into the past, through the ‘Guardian of Forever’, a means of getting closer to the workings of the Cosmic Background Radiation (CMBR), in order to fine tune it at the very source.

This was not a total attempt to revise human history, per say, for that mess was but a fairly typical happening that had way too much dumbness in it to be salvageable. The whims of fate would only create new fools, for wild and uncontrolled emotions had proved to be all that there was to say about all the miseries and follies that had been sadly written into the human chronicle.

Yet, there was always a danger of even more negatively affecting the past, and so Nobody Nowhere wore a light-bending suit that made him invisible, and furthermore contained most of his emanations. This would minimize most of his effects on the past and on the future that arose through interaction with the past, even that eventually magnifying of merely being seen with name brand clothes on.

The microwave background radiation was the source interference pattern of the Holograph in which our reality exists. Behind it, a light radiance passed through a very complex matrix looking somewhat like DNA.

Graybeard, RascalPuff, Profpat, Fredrick, and others were in contact with Nobody through a video phone that was hooked up to the Hubble telescope that was in turn trained on the display screen of the ‘Guardian of Forever’.

Austin was on a secondary line from New Jersey while surfing on the ethereal waves, though sometimes he was merely scraping along on the particulate matter of the beach. Crowds logged onto ThePhilosophyForum, ready to view the latest posts from everywhere and nowhere.

Nobody, knowing very well that time was Nature’s way of keeping everything from happening at once, took one small step for man into the past and found himself back standing right back in front of the ‘Guardian’ again, and so he took a giant leap for mankind.

Nobody stood in noplace during nowhen in the middle of nowhere, although space really has no center, as he navigated solely by the landmarks of his imagination towards the control panel of the CMBR antenna. He had butterflies in his stomach and flew like a bee.

It was like taking the chance of betting the entire company on either red or black in roulette, but more like Russian roulette in that really bad things could happen; however, the human race was quite desperate for clearer thinking, having really had enough of pettiness and silliness. Not to mention (which I will) that the angels of insight didn’t appear as often anymore, and that many humans even dozed off while good fortune passed right on by, nor had they recognized Lady Luck except in lotteries. Furthermore, as Flip Wilson once said, “The cost of living is going up and the chance of living is going down”. In addition, many were living a TV sitcom life. True, genius has its limits, but stupidity… (unknown author)

Many people even wasted no time reading forum posts. Even more said that some things, like ESP, had to be believed to be seen. Others, the types who quickly became bored on rainy Sunday afternoons, invented gods to grant them eternal immortality. Even worse, after all was said and done, more was always said than was done. Signs in subways said, “There is no gravity. The earth sucks.” Everyone was only looking out for #1, not realizing that this often caused them to step in #2.

And Ghandi, when asked what he thought of Western civilization, said, “I think it would be a good idea.” And lots of people said “eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we diet, since the waist was a terrible thing to mind.” Yes, there were more horse’s asses than horses. Some even put Horace before Descartes (Donald O. Rickter).

Hey, I have no problem with the expansion of the universe; it's what goes on on this planet that sometimes bothers me. I'm not shopping for a new cosmos...

The big bang is neither perfect or imperfect; it just is what it is.

If humans are the black sheep of Mother Nature's family, why do you have faith in such a bad mother? — Gnomon

Who said she was a "bad mother"? Nature is not our primary caretaker!

The mutant entities that don't meet the criteria of fitness for G*D's purpose are abandoned (extinction). — Gnomon

'God' seems to be restricted to using evolution by natural selection and the laws of nature.

Inspired by Bill Bryson:

MASTODONS AND EXTINCTIONS

In the late 1700’s, Cuvier could take heaps of bones
And whip them into shapely forms not in the stones.
After describing and naming the fossil elephant the mastodon,
He put forward for the first time a theory on extinction.

He said that from time to time there were global catastrophes
In which some groups of creatures “became history”.
This raised uncomfortable implications at the time,
For why would God create and destroy eithout reason or rhyme?

This suggested an unaccountable casualness by someone unseeing
And greatly troubled the belief in The Great Chain of Being,
Which held that the world was carefully ordered for us—
And that every living thing thus had a place and purpose.

Meanwhile, William Smith noted a correlation in fossils
In rocks to find the relative rock ages that were possible.
At every change in rock strata, certain fossils vanished,
While in others they carried on into subsequent levels.

Now it was seen that God
Had wiped out creatures extinct
Not only occasionally but repeatedly—
Which made us think Him not only careless
But having an outright hostile distinction.

There had been more than
The Biblical Noachian deluge extinction.


WAY WAY BACK

In 1909, in British Columbia, near the town of Field,
Walcott and wife were riding horses
Along a mountain trail, beneath the Burgess Ridge
When his wife’s horse slipped a stone,
Tipping and turning over a slab of shale.

He got down and looked;
There were fossil crustaceans unknown.

The next summer he climbed up the mountain’s side,
Having traced the presumed route of the rock’s slide,
And there he found a shale outcrop as long as a block,
Imprinted with Earth’s ancient and tiny livestock.

‘Twas from the dawn
Of life’s great and complex profusion
From so very long ago—
It was the famous Cambrian explosion.

'God' seems to be restricted to using evolution by natural selection and the laws of nature. — PoeticUniverse

From my Enformationism perspective, I would say that eternal-infinite G*D intentionally "restricted" space-time to natural selection and laws of physics. But those limitations do not apply to the Programmer who lives outside the frame of the game of evolution. My god-model is PanEnDeistic, not PanDeistic : all-in-god, not god-in-all.

PS__Enformationism is perfectly compatible with The Unified Theory of Evolution. In which Darwin's (pre-genetic) non-progressive mechanism is united with Lamarck's updated notion of progressive development via epigenetics. : https://aeon.co/essays/on-epigenetics-we-need-both-darwin-s-and-lamarck-s-theories

Who said she was a "bad mother"? Nature is not our primary caretaker! — uncanni

If Mother Nature had bad children (humanity), who is blame? No, I don't think Mother Nature is bad just because there are a few bad apples in her family tree. Mother Cosmos is imperfect, but not Evil. :smile:

And Ghandi, when asked what he thought of Western civilization, said, “I think it would be a good idea.” And lots of people said “eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we diet, since the waist was a terrible thing to mind.” Yes, there were more horse’s asses than horses. Some even put Horace before Descartes — PoeticUniverse

:grin:

But if all things are possible, given unlimited time & space, then G*D could make room internally, so to speak, for a finite bubble universe that is free to start from nothing (Singularity) and develop into something (Seity). — Gnomon

In the Experiment, Practice makes Perfect… Maybe in the next Big Bubble…

New Baby, New Big Bang. — uncanni

The Eternal Return

Behind the Veil, being that which e’er thrives,
The Eternal IS has ever been alive,
For that which hath no onset cannot die,
Nor a point from which to impart a Why.

Some time it needed to learn Everything for,
And now well knows how these bubbles to pour,
Of existence, in some like universe,
As those that wrote your poem and mine, every verse.

So, as thus, thou lives on yester’s credit line
In nowhere’s midst, now in this life of thine,
As of its bowl your cup of brew was mixed
Into the state of being that’s called “mine”.

Yet worry you that this Cosmos is the last,
That the likes of us will become the past,
Space wondering whither whence we went
After the last of us her life has spent?

The Eternal Saki has thus formed
Trillions of baubles like ours, and will form,
Forevermore—the comings and passings
Of which it ever emits to immerse
Of those universal bubbles blown and burst.

So fear not that a debit close your
Account and mine, knowing the like no more;
The Eternal Cycle from its pot has pour’d
Zillions of bubbles like ours, and will pour.

When You and I behind the cloak are past
But the long while the next universe shall last,
Which of one’s approach and departure the All grasps
As might the sea’s self heed a pebble cast.

I have a question, let me know if I'm derailing.

One if the oldest divinities is the sun. Schamesh (or something like that) is an old Sumerian name.

One version if the epic of Gilgamesh starts with the people of Uruk appealing to Schamesh to save them from their king, who is an asshole.

Schamesh hears them and is moved to help them. He doesn't fix the problem himself, but hands it off to the primary goddess. She deals with it effectively.

Schamesh is the sun. Schamesh is divine. My question is: does Schamesh exist?

If Mother Nature had bad children (humanity), who is blame? No, I don't think Mother Nature is bad just because there are a few bad apples in her family tree. Mother Cosmos is imperfect, but not Evil. :smile: — Gnomon

This is the only case where I would hold neither nature nor nurture responsible for bad humans. Mother Nature didn't physically, sexually or verbally abuse humans, or in any way deprive love. That's not how it operates. Nor do I find the Great Breathing Cosmic Womb in any way imperfect: it does exactly what it's supposed to do.

It's only humans (and perhaps cats, who have a tendency to be overly cruel with their prey) who don't do what they're supposed to do: all other species take appropriate care of the environment and thus thrive, until they have to move on (i.e., plagues of locusts). Humans, on the other hand, wantonly and wilfully destroy their own environment, not to mention the obscenely horrific way they have treated other humans throughout history. My fundamental premise is that human cruelty, greed and exploitation of nature are "bad." They may have produced technology in general, but the entire enterprise has reached catastrophic proportions now, as most of the world recognizes.

no longer relevant to the discussion