• Wayfarer
    8.9k
    Having Corbyn leading the opposition is, I don't know, having Neville Chamberlain in charge of the Battle of Britain. They sorely need a charismatic Remainer. (Like the US sorely needs a charismatic alternative president.)
  • Wayfarer
    8.9k
    although I now realise the above remark really should have been posted in the Brexit thread.
  • Punshhh
    934
    I would prefer Corbyn to Johnson, because we would have some welcome policies enacted. His lack of leadership as it comes across in the media is preferable than the buffoonery irrespective of the policies. Actually as a government I would expect the Labour Party to do well and work diligently towards repairing an ailing economy following 10 years of Tory austerity.

    I would point out that the way Corbyn is depicted in the British media Including on the BBC is over critical and biased in favour of an accepted view amongst the intelligentsia/establishment that he is bad news, an extreme socialist, Marxist( in the most negative sense)* and that his government would pretty much bankrupt the country, drown us in debt, be chaotic and disorganised and bring back overbearing unions etc etc. Such views, although often watered down, are widely accepted as fact in the UK amongst large swathes of the population. This bias has persisted from the 1970's and is rarely challenged in the media and many left wing commentators are largely disregarded as lefties.

    In reality it would begin to bring back some sorely needed balance in the running of the country, which has become unequal, exploitative etc, with public services in a state of bankruptcy. It left us over exposed in the financial crisis, with most of the population just about managing, teetering on the edge of defaulting on their mortgages, or loans( so you can see how sorely we need a no deal Brexit).

    *I didn't even mention the slurs about a Corbyn foreign policy. Which are in the realms of he is dangerous( wear as Johnson is not), is probably in the pocket of Putin and could not be trusted to push the nuclear button if the country was under attack.
  • Wayfarer
    8.9k
    I suppose Corbyn seems vastly more authentic than the current occupant but I must say the prevailing narrative has persuaded me that he would be too far to the left. (It’s a shane Blair blew his credibility supporting W.) I hope some white knight materialises.
  • Wayfarer
    8.9k
    One of the things I hate about Brexit is the kinds of people who think it’s a great idea. And actually a point against Corbyn is his equivocation over the issue.
  • Punshhh
    934
    Yes, Corbyn is a true socialist and a long way left of the current administration, or perhaps what might be desirable. However I think the state of the nation is so unbalanced, so skewed against any social equality, so rampant exploitation of people who are vulnerable through a lack of resources. The welfare state is so under resourced, squeezed and on its knees, that the only way to restore any balance and equality, to bring us back from the brink of some sort of social/cultural breakdown would be to move radically towards the left and bring some relief for those who are struggling and being exploited.

    I expect you are aware of how inflated property prices discriminate against the under resourced. In the UK the housing crisis is fuelling a rapid increase in the gap between the rich and the poor. Leaving anyone who is not a property owner exploited by those who do and the redistribution of the poor into sink towns and estates and the well off gentrifying idillic villages and desirable areas. These forces are exploited through contemporary forms of capitalism and corporate interests. This alongside the way in which the wealthy and corporations syphon of wealth and profits offshore, is bleeding the society dry.

    We really do need this state of affairs rectifying , rather than being fuelled by a trade deal with the US.
  • Wayfarer
    8.9k
    Oh I think the benefits of the US trade deal is just more puffery by Trump and his toadies. That’s what I meant when I said that I don’t like the people who wave the Brexit flag. I mean, Trump’s so-called trade war with China appears to be producing nothing of benefit, so why a free trade deal with the UK ought to do so is far from obvious.
  • Baden
    8.9k
    https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/08/12/boris-johnson-doesnt-want-no-deal-brexit-he-wants-to-win-an-election-jeremy-corbyn-brexit-election-cummings/
    "[BoJo is] bluffing both sides of the Brexit divide at home in an attempt to consolidate the Leave vote and provoke his opponents into saving him from the near-certain catastrophe of a no-deal Brexit, which would threaten to destroy the Tories’ reputation for economic competence for a generation. Leaving the EU was never Johnson’s priority: It was seizing power. And now that he’s moved into Downing Street, Johnson will do everything he can to stay there."
  • S
    11.8k
    Yes, Corbyn is a true socialist and a long way left of the current administration, or perhaps what might be desirable. However I think the state of the nation is so unbalanced, so skewed against any social equality, so rampant exploitation of people who are vulnerable through a lack of resources. The welfare state is so under resourced, squeezed and on its knees, that the only way to restore any balance and equality, to bring us back from the brink of some sort of social/cultural breakdown would be to move radically towards the left and bring some relief for those who are struggling and being exploited.

    I expect you are aware of how inflated property prices discriminate against the under resourced. In the UK the housing crisis is fuelling a rapid increase in the gap between the rich and the poor. Leaving anyone who is not a property owner exploited by those who do and the redistribution of the poor into sink towns and estates and the well off gentrifying idillic villages and desirable areas. These forces are exploited through contemporary forms of capitalism and corporate interests. This alongside the way in which the wealthy and corporations syphon of wealth and profits offshore, is bleeding the society dry.

    We really do need this state of affairs rectifying , rather than being fuelled by a trade deal with the US.
    Punshhh

    Yes, in short, the Overton window is in dire need of a leftward shift. Perhaps now more than ever.
  • Wayfarer
    8.9k
    So, who has been ‘shortest serving PM in British Parliamentary history’? Any chance Bo Jo could assume that role? Google tells me George Canning, whose term lasted 119 days, so it’s there for the taking.....
  • S
    11.8k
    So, who has been ‘shortest serving PM in British Parliamentary history’? Any chance Bo Jo could assume that role? Google tells me George Canning, whose term lasted 119 days, so it’s there for the taking...Wayfarer

    They have quite a few similarities. Although, whereas Gove metaphorically knifed Boris in the back, Castlereagh literally shot Canning.
  • Punshhh
    934
    I've just heard Johnson's first PM questions, a rip roaring performance of bluff and bluster. In which he managed to insult nearly everyone and both claimed to want an election and not want one in the same breath. Apparently Johnson is the best of friends and partners with all the European leaders, while Corbyn is a friend of all the worlds despots, and emulates Venezuela, indeed he is Carackers. Oh and also the only chlorinated chicken in the house.

    Corbyn asked repeatedly for him to publish the revised operation yellow hammer report which was to be published today by Gove, but which was pulled due to being too alarming for the public. He didn't answer and waffled on like some drunken outdated bar prop.
  • S
    11.8k
    It had some great moments, like the rare clapping across the opposition benches in response to an MP calling for an apology for Boris's remarks about women wearing the burka, and the brutal criticism of Boris's chief advisor by one of the now independent former-Tory MPs.
  • Wayfarer
    8.9k
    Brutal takedown in the Daily Beast - serves to remind us of Boris' history of mendacity (in which respect he is very like....never mind....)
  • Bitter Crank
    8.4k
    Tbh, I think Trump actually believes a lot of the stupid shit he comes out withBaden

    Tbh, it's an important question whether he believes a lot (or any) of the stupid shit he says, but a commentator today on NPR noted that while presidential candidates have all backed off of statements that fact-checkers found to be erroneous, Donald Trump doesn't back off -- he repeats the information that had been found false (or misleading) and amplifies it. His "base", who think he is persecuted by the press, hear the press identifying un-truths, lies, make believe, etc. coming from the WH, and they think to themselves, "No matter what Trump says, the press accuses him of lying, or being wrong..."

    Fascism has been characterized as "more of a method than a message". Fascism destroys the basis of cogent discussion of real issues by deeply obfuscating policy, lying, issuing misleading information, and in general presenting a chaotic front.

    I have not yet arrived at the conclusion that Donald Trump is a fascist, but there is an odor of fascismo about him that is unsavory; it has top notes of cadaverine. Proposals to eliminate ALL refugee admissions to the U.S. (refugees -- not talking about illegal immigrants here) is a the sort of hateful move I would expect from someone with fascistic tendencies. Ditto his reversals of progressive environmental policies aimed at reducing CO2 emissions. Ditto ad nauseum.
  • Wayfarer
    8.9k
    Best Rees-Mogg meme so far....

    EDnypAwXYAIabej?format=jpg&name=small
  • Punshhh
    934
    Nice meme lol.

    It's looking as though Boris is spent, there are more Tory MPs considering their positions this weekend. Due to actions like prorogation and removing the whip from Tory MPs. As I see it if Johnson tries to pull a fast one now, then he will loose support from another group of MPs and will be so weakened that it will clear the way for a no confidence vote and an alternative government being formed. All my worries about him breaking the law or sculduggery are evaporating.
  • S
    11.8k
    Boris is doing a Theresa and holding a second vote in parliament which is bound to fail.
  • iolo
    171
    It is a great pity that political parties now feel compelled to have fuhrers to prevent serious issues being discussed. The rich manifestly do not want to lose control of the various countries, so their newspapers and other media constantly denounce any Labour politician who stands for traditional Labour policy in a most extreme and obsessive way. It is very boring.
  • Punshhh
    934
    Boris is going to build a bridge betweeen Northern Ireland and Scotland, so that someone can travel between different parts of the EU without having to travel through England, when Ireland is united and Scotland leaves the UK. How thoughtful.

    Or maybe he is very cunning, he will claim ownership of the bridge and charge a toll.
  • Baden
    8.9k


    Maybe the bridge will be a prelude to a new Celtic Union of National Territories, whose acronym shall be a fond remembrance of the British Prime Minister who inspired its inception.
  • S
    11.8k
    Back in 2017, Labour pledged to raise the Minimum Wage to the level of the Living Wage (expected to be at least £10 per hour by 2020) – for all workers aged 18 or over, and now they're including all workers under the age of 18, too.

    The Tories, in contrast, are only now pledging to increase their National Living Wage (not the Minimum Wage!) to £10.50 per hour, but not until 2024, and even then, it will still exclude anyone under the age of 21. (It currently excludes anyone under the age of 25!).

    And yet the current Tory Chancellor, Sajid Javid, has the nerve to declare at the Tory party conference, "It's clear it's the Conservatives who are the real party of labour - we are the workers' party".

    No, you're not.
  • Punshhh
    934
    And yet the current Tory Chancellor, Sajid Javid, has the nerve to declare at the Tory party conference, "It's clear it's the Conservatives who are the real party of labour - we are the workers' party".
    I can't imagine who would believe the pledges of the Tory party now, they have no credibility left. It will go down as the worst Tory conference in history I think, they really have lost the plot.
  • ssu
    1.7k
    Yes, all seems to be so well in these well established and exemplary democracies like United States and United Kingdom.

    Both are sooo united these days.

    Au-G7-Donald-Trump-a-un-nouvel-ami-Boris-Johnson.jpg
  • iolo
    171
    I don't think, after the last few years, that if I were rich I should even be tempted to send a child of mine to Eton, if I ever had been before. What on earth are parents thinking of, and ought there not be some discussion of possible child-abuse?
  • S
    11.8k
    I can't imagine who would believe the pledges of the Tory party now, they have no credibility left. It will go down as the worst Tory conference in history I think, they really have lost the plot.Punshhh

    Worse than Theresa's? :snicker:
  • Punshhh
    934
    Eton is the finishing school for Tory Prime Ministers. It's just like a Victorian museum, you expect Phileus Fogg, or Jacob Rees Mogg to walk round the corner at anytime. Plus it's a five minute walk from Windsor castle and many Royals went to school there.
  • iolo
    171
    744

    ↪iolo Eton is the finishing school for Tory Prime Ministers. It's just like a Victorian museum, you expect Phileus Fogg, or Jacob Rees Mogg to walk round the corner at anytime. Plus it's a five minute walk from Windsor castle and many Royals went to school there.
    Punshhh

    It seems to me that they manufactured rather more convincing Prime Ministers back then. I rather suspect that Johnson is a rather late example of the sixties satire boom!
  • Tim3003
    164
    I think Michel Barnier has Boris's measure. He said that when the Brexit deal talks re-started he did not think Boris was serious about wanting a deal, happy to go with no-deal. Then MPs passed the Letwin bill to stop a no-deal exit on Oct 31st, and Boris suddenly started putting real effort into the negotiations, eventually secuiring a deal. It's clear that meeting his publicly announced deadline outweighed any view he had on the markedly differing futures of the country brought about by his options for meeting it.
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