The EU don't want a 'no-deal' any more than most people. But on the other hand, they're quite entitled to deny any further extension on the basis that it's demonstrably pointless. Which seems to me to mean that the UK is going to *have* to cancel Article 50, or face the economic consequences of crashing out, which will almost certainly provoke a severe economic downturn.

What's that saying? 'Nothing concentrates the mind quite so well as the knowledge one will be hung in the morning'.

I think that as long as there are significant political forces in the UK pushing for a more conciliatory position with regards to the EU, the EU leaders are unlikely to cut them off. Also: The longer the Brexit chaos drags on, the stronger the chilling effect on other leave movements.

Which seems to me to mean that the UK is going to *have* to cancel Article 50, or face the economic consequences of crashing out, which will almost certainly provoke a severe economic downturn.

Yes and I would hope the government would revoke, but as I said earlier it is much deeper than this. The government has lurched to the right and is now expressing the demands of a group of Tory's who are fighting to save the Conservative party. This is far more important to them than what happens in the Brexit crisis. They would revoke today if it saved their party, but the only hope in their eyes is to leave without a deal and hope that support for the Brexit party would begin to wane and die as people realised that the Brexit party had no purpose any more.

They really are rabid, because not only are they fighting for the soul of their party, but they see looming on the horizon a Corbyn government, which in their eyes would be a living hell just as bad as a worst excesses of a no deal Brexit. Precisely because at least in that no deal Brexit they, the Conservative party would still be there to help clear up the mess. If Corbyn is there and the conservatives have died, their whole world falls apart and the soul of the country is lost.

I read that Corbyn’s polling is dreadful. I must say I couldn’t vote for him, if I were British it would have to be Lib Dems but I can’t see them forming Government.

Yes, I am sure the EU will grant an extension if a general election is called. They realise that there is a crisis in the UK which requires time and patience to resolve and they don't want to be perceived as responsible for a no deal Brexit.

I know, but in the eyes of this group of Tory's it's the fear of a Corbyn government alongside their own haemorrhaging of support to the Brexit party which drives their push for a no deal.

So you have a perfect storm in the minds of these people

I would happily vote for the the Lib Dems or Labour, (I am a Green Party supporter) as the economy needs repairing and I have confidence that Corbyn would start the work to repair the country.

if an extension isn't granted article 50 ends and the UK ceases to be a member. It's all in the gift of the EU. — Punshhh

There is a clause in article 50 that says the decision to leave has to be made democratically according to the laws of the country, so It could be that if the Benn bill is law, and nothing is done that not only will Britain not have left, but the whole article 50 notice will have in effect been revoked.

But don't tell Boris.

Can’t deny that. But she did negotiate a Brexit deal, agreed to by the EU.

But perhaps worse than that deal is they’re giving up their one remaining bargaining chip: a no deal Brexit. — NOS4A2

The best alternative to no agreement is throwing the UK a bone.

Any deal is better than no deal, so "no deal" isn't and never has been a bargaining chip because it's the equivalent of shooting yourself in the foot. It's entirely possible though this is exactly what the political outcome will be, because politics isn't a negotiation. However, the EU in this process is acting as the technocratic bureacracy it is, bereft of politics and just straight negotiations because the political mandate has been set out 2 years ago. So political commitments of UK politicians that they'll deliver on Brexit with "no deal" if they have to, has no effect on the stance of the EU.

The EU has been very clear: it has completely closed rank in support of Ireland as it should be. After all, Ireland will remain a member and the UK wanted to leave... well, actually people were split on the question.

Which brings me to another point, people voted for leave with a stastically insignificant majority (and as such should never have carried the weight it does now) and while a majority of those who voted for leave would be happy with no deal, it's safe to assume that all Remainers were and are against a no-deal Brexit even more than a negotiated Brexit. In other words, a vast majority of UK citizens never wanted and do not currently want a no-deal Brexit.

But don't imagine that pose was anything but deliberate. — unenlightened

It has backfired on him.
[ just as his accusations against whistleblower Dr.Nicholl have.
https://www.channel4.com/news/dr-david-nicholl-if-rees-mogg-wants-to-repeat-that-outside-of-parliament-i-will-sue
After significant pressure, he has since apologised: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/05/rees-mogg-condemned-for-comparing-doctor-to-disgraced-anti-vaxxer-autism ]

He is a nasty piece of work. People will react against this in any election. Hopefully.

This R-M pose has been circulated worldwide. Wonderful to see this installation by the anti-Brexit campaigners 'Led by Donkeys'. Captions include 'Lying Tory' - ' No one voted for this' - 'They're Lying'.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jacob-rees-mogg-edinburgh-castle_uk_5d70bc33e4b09bbc9ef9fe47

The Corbyn 'Chicken' was on the cover of the UK Sun. Not on the Scottish or Irish Sun, reflecting different views towards the Tories. In Scotland: 'Floppy Johnson Can't Get An Election'.

The current Westminster government is being increasingly seen as the 'English Nationalist Party'.
See heated comments by frustrated European negotiator in video below:

Excellent Matt Frei piece ! 5 minutes.

https://www.channel4.com/news/are-brexit-talks-really-yielding-progress

ah, but have they told the EU?

There is a clause in article 50 that says the decision to leave has to be made democratically according to the laws of the country — unenlightened

That's already happened; Parliament voting to grant Theresa May authority to invoke article 50.

It could be that if the Benn bill is law, and nothing is done that not only will Britain not have left, but the whole article 50 notice will have in effect been revoked. — unenlightened

It's only revoked if the UK writes to the EU to notify them that it's withdrawing the prior notice to leave.

It's only revoked if the UK writes to the EU to notify them that it's withdrawing the prior notice to leave. — Michael

You may be right. But you may be wrong; it is at least possible to say that the Benn bill legally changes the democratic decision.

Excellent analysis :up:

But perhaps worse than that deal is they’re giving up their one remaining bargaining chip: a no deal Brexit.
— NOS4A2

The best alternative to no agreement is throwing the UK a bone.

Any deal is better than no deal, so "no deal" isn't and never has been a bargaining chip because it's the equivalent of shooting yourself in the foot. It's entirely possible though this is exactly what the political outcome will be, because politics isn't a negotiation. However, the EU in this process is acting as the technocratic bureacracy it is, bereft of politics and just straight negotiations because the political mandate has been set out 2 years ago. So political commitments of UK politicians that they'll deliver on Brexit with "no deal" if they have to, has no effect on the stance of the EU. — Benkei

[my bolds]

Exactly this.
There is no bargaining chip. The Tories are not in negotiations.
See:
https://www.channel4.com/news/are-brexit-talks-really-yielding-progress

It has backfired on him. — Amity

Diversion, and taking some heat off the Boris Cummings faction. All that wasted effort. We are talking about it, and that is a win, because important suff passes by unnoticed.

One of which is that either by breaking the Benn law or by simply not appointing a commissioner, No deal can still be possibly accomplished. Alas, the idiotic democrats refused the no-confidence motion and government of unity that could have taken control... might be too late now.

Diversion, and taking some heat off the Boris Cummings faction. All that wasted effort. We are talking about it, and that is a win, because important suff passes by unnoticed. — unenlightened

Yes. However still very useful as an anti-Tory campaign tool.
We can talk about both that and the Boris Cummings faction.
But such images are more influential in manipulating the public, either way. I would say.

This article and BTL comments might give you a better idea than anything I could offer up.
Things are changing so quickly, it is all quite bewildering.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/sep/06/early-late-election-labour-brexit-october-johnson

The EU Court has already ruled on this:

“The revocation must be decided following a democratic process in accordance with national constitutional requirements. This unequivocal and unconditional decision must be communicated in writing to the European Council.”

Right. The legal opinion I saw must have been wrong or out of date. But there is still a conflict if the decision to leave must also be be decided following a democratic process in accordance with national constitutional requirements, and the leader illegally refuses to seek an extension... maybe - please?

One of which is that either by breaking the Benn law or by simply not appointing a commissioner, No deal can still be possibly accomplished. Alas, the idiotic democrats refused the no-confidence motion and government of unity that could have taken control... might be too late now.

I don't think it's to late for the government of unity yet. The important thing is not to table the vote of no confidence to soon, because there is a risk in anything which dissolves Parliament and allows Johnson to squat in No 10. Parliament must be sitting until after the extension is achieved.

I have heard rumours that the EU would not automatically expel us of we fail to appoint a commissioner. Regarding the Benn law, provided parliament can sit until the extension is achieved, they should be able to check, or bypass any attempt to break the law.

I hope you are right.

All this talk of 'doing or dying' - 'dying in a ditch' - 'surrender bill '- 'coward' - 'rebels'- 'traitors'.
The ditch isn't by the wayside, it's about trench warfare.
It stirs up more division and potential for violence.
It is designed to inflame and it is scary stuff.
Politicians and staff continue to receive death threats *
The nastiness is being intensified by Johnson's advisor Cummings.
Should there be an investigation into this man and his malign influence ?

* Just one example:
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/caroline-spelman-quits-tory-mp-to-stand-down-over-abuse-and-death-threats-which-left-her-wearing-a4230241.html

From the Guardian Politics Live:
'Harriet Harman, the Labour former deputy leader and the chair of the joint committee on human rights, has joked that so many moderate Tories are being driven out of the party that she is thinking of holding an inquiry.

"When are we going to wake-up to what’s going on here? Caroline Spelman, elected, thoroughly decent, hard-working MP driven out of Parlt. We can’t stand by while MPs driven out or retreat behind security gates? "

Agreed, the hardliners will have to be pulled kicking and screaming out of office. They are like headless chickens ( no pun on Corbyn intended).

I understand a no-deal Brexit will be bad for the UK, but is it also bad for the EU? This is relevant as to whether the EU is motivated to grant another extension.

Google returned this:

'On Monday Austria’s foreign minister, Alexander Schallenberg, said the bloc would keep open the possibility of an extension to the UK’s membership beyond 31 October.

Schallenberg said: “Of course our thread of patience doesn’t go on forever. But in the past two years, we have put in a lot of energy to make an orderly exit possible. Secondly, a disorderly exit would have many consequences that we can not foresee in its entirety when it comes to financial flows and services.'

From:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/02/eu-could-declare-no-deal-brexit-as-major-natural-disaster

Then they have no good reason to deny an extension. UK just has to ask.

Sounds easy, doesn't it ?
Trouble is Johnson is being an arse. And even if an extension is achieved, there is still trouble afoot.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/06/backstop-boris-johnson-brexit-deal-changes-defence-workers-rights

Hey ho...

Just read this on Guardian Live:
'Boris Johnson has said he will win a new Brexit deal at next month’s EU summit by using his “powers of persuasion”, and rejected calls for a further extension to article 50.

The prime minister said he had no plans to accept the new legislation which would require him to write to the EU asking for a “pointless” delay to Brexit, during a visit to Aberdeenshire on Friday.'

Delusional and irresponsible - just one way to describe this character.

In the face of all that reality, Trump continues to delude himself about his escalating trade war with China, telling reporters on Wednesday that “they want to make a deal”. But Donald’s assertions about Beijing’s desires are about as reliable as Boris’s claims about Brussels.

Both leaders are demanding ransom payments by holding themselves hostage. Trump’s anti-China tariffs are actually paid by American consumers. As a tactic, this is as brilliant as Boris threatening Brussels with the prospect of economic collapse in Britain.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/sep/06/boris-and-donald-two-leaders-afraid-to-do-the-hard-work-of-running-a-country?CMP=fb_gu&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR1tTJPvXGkZNjsWMTMwJVqCnS4kKOQ4qpD1Onrs-F84u5Ut1oGOUyyqUVA#Echobox=1567751422

The direct trading effect for the Netherlands is estimated at a loss of about 10 billion euros. This will be somewhat mitigated because UK companies will be less competitive in the EU market after it leaves the EU and this will create opportunities for Dutch companies. Because the same holds true for every other company in the EU, it remains to be seen how strong the mitigating effect is.

The best alternative to no agreement is throwing the UK a bone.

Any deal is better than no deal, so "no deal" isn't and never has been a bargaining chip because it's the equivalent of shooting yourself in the foot. It's entirely possible though this is exactly what the political outcome will be, because politics isn't a negotiation. However, the EU in this process is acting as the technocratic bureacracy it is, bereft of politics and just straight negotiations because the political mandate has been set out 2 years ago. So political commitments of UK politicians that they'll deliver on Brexit with "no deal" if they have to, has no effect on the stance of the EU.

The EU has been very clear: it has completely closed rank in support of Ireland as it should be. After all, Ireland will remain a member and the UK wanted to leave... well, actually people were split on the question.

Which brings me to another point, people voted for leave with a stastically insignificant majority (and as such should never have carried the weight it does now) and while a majority of those who voted for leave would be happy with no deal, it's safe to assume that all Remainers were and are against a no-deal Brexit even more than a negotiated Brexit. In other words, a vast majority of UK citizens never wanted and do not currently want a no-deal Brexit.

I don’t see how a deal is the only way to go, especially if that deal is no good. May’s deal, for instance, was deemed a bad deal. Rather, It would be shooting oneself in the foot to accept a bad deal. The no-deal needs to remain on the table as another option.

“Safe to assume” is not good enough. It was once safe to assume the UK didn’t want to leave the EU. Boy, was that assumption wrong.