Undoing a previous vote with a subsequent vote is how democracy works. — Michael

No it isn't. It's how democracy is undermined. By your logic the UK should decide every other year if it wants to remain or leave.

This is about the British identity. It's just the last fumes of a dead empire.

The will of the people is whatever the will of the people is now, not what it was in the past. Voters have died, voters have changed their mind, and new voters who ought be allowed a say on their future are now of age.

That seems to me to suggest voting on the same issue in perpetuity. So how many referendums on the same question should it take for the result to be implemented? Or do we just stop when we get the result that we want?

No it isn't. It's how democracy is undermined. By your logic the UK should decide every other year if it wants to remain or leave. — frank

Why not? We’re currently having a GE every other year. The people’s will is always changing. If anything it’s undemocratic to ignore it.

That seems to me to suggest voting on the same issue in perpetuity. So how many referendums on the same question should it take for the result to be implemented? — NOS4A2

That’s what we do with General Elections.

That’s what we do with General Elections.

We shouldn’t conflate a referendum with a general election. One is a vote over a policy proposal while the other is a vote over who holds legislative power.

The people’s will is always changing — Michael

If you don't have a brexit vote once a week, you dont have a democracy.

:100:

Yes its all very promising and the parliamentary process of resting control from the bexiters. But the problem is far deeper, you will need to step up a gear, the government is in the control of an ideological cult. They will do anything to push us over the cliff, including breaking the law, fake news, Trumpism. They are rabid and the opposition has to prepair for the worst of these tactics because it is not worth the risk. This is why I said in my last message we could well find ourselves on the streets.

I'm hoping that if things break down to far, or Johnson does something tragic to avoid requesting an extension from the EU that the EU will grant an extension by some other means dealing directly with parliament.

So the will of the people does not include the will of the constituents? — NOS4A2

No. I am not sure how it even makes sense to speak of one will including another.

I agree with Boris. I'd rather him dead in a ditch than seek an extension from Brussels.

I agree with Boris. I'd rather see him dead in a ditch than seek an extension from Brussels. — S

He's rather be dead in a ditch but apparently not rather resign.

Yes, it sounds like the opposition has a similar view. I heard someone remarking on Johnson's phrase "do or die", saying that if we don't grant him an election, then its die rather than do.

Cause of death: electile dysfunction.

That's the worry when it's a test of virility. Perhaps Rees Mogg will have to step into the breach with his Mogg spreading

Cause of death: electile dysfunction. — Baden

Seems a fitting way to go for Mr. Johnson.

Still can’t get Brexit through even 3 years later. Remainers like to pay lip-service to democracy while opposing the will of the people at all costs. Let’s see how long they can disguise their authoritarianism beneath their glittering generalities.

Its the breath taking incompetence of Theresa May and the ERG which has left us in this mess. The opposition was happy to work out a cross party Brexit deal and would have voted it through ten months ago.

. I'd rather him dead in a ditch than seek an extension from Brussels. — S

I don't see how Brexit can happen on 31 Oct, though. No-deal is about to become banned by law, May's deal was voted down three times, and Johnson doesn't look like having anything like an alternative proposal.

Can’t deny that. But she did negotiate a Brexit deal, agreed to by the EU.

But perhaps worse than that deal is they’re giving up their one remaining bargaining chip: a no deal Brexit.

The initial referendum was improperly framed and run. For a change of this magnitude, it ought to have required a super-majority (i.e. 66%), and at least mentioned the means by which the proposed separation would be executed. . It was simply the expression of an opinion about membership of the EU without any consideration of the real consequences - which is why this state of paralysis has ensued.

Overall, calling the referendum in the first place was a dubious decision, and loosing it a catastrophe.

I would love to hear some predictions about what will happen, particularly (but not exclusively) from UK residents. Not what you want to happen, but what you actually think will happen both short term and long term.

Australian - my fervent hope is that it falls through, that Brexit is cancelled. (My last years Christmas wish was Brexit cancelled, Trump impeached - still waiting, although both are at least still plausible.)

In reality, I expect the Brexit fiasco still has a long while to run (or rather to fit and spasm on the ground whilst blowing spittle from its dying lips...)

I don't see how Brexit can happen on 31 Oct, though. No-deal is about to become banned by law, May's deal was voted down three times, and Johnson doesn't look like having anything like an alternative proposal. — Wayfarer

Yeah, I wasn't suggesting that my preference was to leave on the 31st of October. That was some dark humour suggesting that my preference was for Boris to be dead in a ditch.

I would love to hear some predictions about what will happen, particularly (but not exclusively) from UK residents. Not what you want to happen, but what you actually think will happen both short term and long term. — Relativist

I'm from England, and I really have no idea, but here goes. There'll be an extension, then a slightly modified version of the withdrawal agreement, which won't get through parliament. Then there'll be a vote of no confidence, and an alternative government. If it goes to a general election, I'm not sure anyone can win a majority.

That was some dark humour suggesting that my preference was for Boris to be dead in a ditch. — S

he's practically as good as, as far as I can tell from 12,000 km away. :naughty:

As I said yesterday, I kind of admire the conservatives who stood up against him. I wish those spineless gutless congressional republicans would do the same to T.

my fervent hope is that it falls through, that Brexit is cancelled. — Wayfarer

Yes, there is the theoretical possibility of Brexit simply being cancelled. I would enjoy this outcome: all the fuss and holloring, all the political theatre and emotionality and ...nothing! :sweat: :grin:

All this time wasted away about nothing.

Actually Nigel Farage with his new UKIP 2.0 party would love that!

Yes, but if this law is passed, Johnson will not be able to leave with no agreement. It’s all bluff and bluster.

He can, leaving without a deal is the default position at the moment, it requires action to prevent it.The fact that it is illegal in the UK for the government in the UK to "leave without a deal" is irrelevant to this.

For example Johnson could go to the EU summit in October claiming he is going to request an extension and abide within the law and disappear on route ( get in a car and drive to a secret location and hide until after 31st October). The extension would not have been requested and we would leave without a deal. The Queen could request the extension in his place, but she may decide not to interfere in politics and let it happen rather than get embroiled in political chaos.

One might say well that's ok, we can just go back to the EU and say sorry about Boris, he acted illegally can we forget it ever happened and have that extension anyway. But the chances are they would not be able to grant this, or they would not want to. Or they might say only if you revoke, or yes ,but you loose your special privileges( which are considerable).

In these circumstances the chaos and division would be ramped up far higher than it is at the moment and we would be on the street and edging closer and closer to a civil war.

How could it be irrelevant? There is indeed an action being taken to prevent it, namely, a law that disallows leaving the European Union without an agreement on terms (e.g. here). A 'no-deal brexit' has never been a 'default position', not even for Johnson - he's been saying (although not many believe him) that he's only threatening it to get traction in negotiations. But in any case, it looks like the option of no-deal is off the table. And he doesn't have a majority in Parliament to do anything - as of this moment, he's being 'held hostage in Number 10' as some commentator said.

As I said yesterday, I kind of admire the conservatives who stood up against him. I wish those spineless gutless congressional republicans would do the same to T. — Wayfarer

Yes, this was brilliant.

Sorry I was still typing on my last message while you posted.

I don't see how Brexit can happen on 31 Oct, though. No-deal is about to become banned by law, May's deal was voted down three times, and Johnson doesn't look like having anything like an alternative proposal. — Wayfarer

The new law will require Boris to request an extension. The EU might not grant one. Macron almost didn’t last time, and since then there hasn’t been a good faith effort to renegotiate, so they might decide that it’s pointless to drag it out further.

yes, if an extension isn't granted article 50 ends and the UK ceases to be a member. It's all in the gift of the EU.