Like insisting on incinerating the skin of a piece of fruit that's already been eaten. It's too late to do any damage worthwhile. If life is what you despise, your life such as it had any substance has been drained from you by the time you wish to end it. — Baden

Excellent point! I like the fruit analogy too. There is nothing to even give to death at that point.

I think Cioran points to his game here, which is the same game played by most extreme pessimists, and that is to productively externalise their negativity as a process of catharsis in order precisely to make life worth living, or feel so, so long as said orientation is always presented as its obverse. Cioran's pessimism is itself the cloak of identity which refutes its central premise. He lived a long, productive and creative life not despite, but because of, his professed disgust for existence, which professed disgust he milked for every psychic drop of energy it could provide. And this secret life-affirming joy of pessimism is something we should all share in with a wry backward smile. It's the optimists who will kill you with their obvious lies, or you yourself if you cleave yourself to/with their words. Better to be at the bottom of the sea and realize you have gills than on a cruise ship heading for an ice-berg. — Baden

More great stuff. I think you nailed it with the ironic life affirming joy of pessimism as well as catharsis. In other words, we must recognize the what is the case of the world first before anything else. The case is that it was better never to have been, but that we are here nonetheless. Now we are stuck with the inertia of nothing to do about it but mine and opine. The catharsis is in recognition of all aspects of the tragedy both in the everyday and extraordinary varieties, overturning the rocks of optimism which incompetently try to hide "what is the case". The rebellion is in the very understanding of the absurdity and the ever futile attempts to try to share this information, perhaps most effectively in glimpses of aphoristic poems and phrases.

Its not possible to suicide prior to coming into existence, but now that you exist, it is too late. Having coming into existence as a being afflicted by welfare states, the harm has already been done. It now makes no sense to suicide as a way to improve your state of welfare, as you will destroy that which could be worse or better off by the act of lethally harming yourself. — Inyenzi

Yes, good point. This is what Schopenhauer meant I believe, when he said:

"Suicide may also be regarded as an experiment — a question which man puts to Nature, trying to force her to an answer. The question is this: What change will death produce in a man’s existence and in his insight into the nature of things? It is a clumsy experiment to make; for it involves the destruction of the very consciousness which puts the question and awaits the answer"
-Schopenhuaer- On Suicide

Kind of... Here's how I would put it with some more self-indulgent ramblings :p So, I think it's good to look at how pessimism functions rather than argue over the contents directly (as we have done many times before). And this involves recognizing both that an optimism built on fear dressed up as "positive thinking" or some other avoidance mechanism will always find ways to undermine itself and that a pessimism which embraces the logical underpinnings of that fear will functionally defy its apparent conclusions—reflecting the psychological principle that what we chase runs away from us due to the act of chasing creating as much as confirming the absence of that chased (as what we run away from chases us in similar fashion but from the opposing direction).

I think we all understand this at some level but that understanding tends to be instantiated indirectly through a fascination with the macabre, the horrific and the disturbing as presented and marketed to us by the media who've essentially appropriated almost exclusive access to this facet of human psychology—with this form of access serving to extenuate the issue rather than offer any real solution (in our relatively peaceful and secure western bubble at least).

A sort of ironic distance from the self and its emotional proclivities then, as achieved by daring them to do their worst while maintaining as open as possible an intellectual stance, is likely a better bet for the more infatigably sensitive souls among us than the contrary faithful overidentification. So, the obscene joys of nightmares win out over the sterile plateaus of dreams or each becomes the other when looked at obtusely, the crux being that we shouldn't cling to a central stable point of identity which then has to be positively grounded in order to justify its continued existence but instead embrace a kind of permanent free-fall without any hope of flying (while we're effectively doing just that).

So, you're basically saying that identity formation is motivated by optimistic thought or wishful thinking? And, those who look past the dissonance of pessimism are more fit to live?

So, you're basically saying that identity formation is motivated by optimistic thought or wishful thinking? — Wallows

It very often is in an ungroundable way but the main point is to focus on what pessimism, in its philosophic sense, does rather than says.

And, those who look past the dissonance of pessimism are more fit to live? — Wallows

More like those who can rhyme themselves with that dissonance may find its threats expended so the bottom is never reached.

That's my impression of it psychologically at least (said with awareness that there are plenty around here more knowledgeable about the details of the subject and its major proponents).

A sort of ironic distance from the self and its emotional proclivities then, as achieved by daring them to do their worst while maintaining as open as possible an intellectual stance, is likely a better bet for the more infatigably sensitive souls among us than the contrary faithful overidentification. So, the obscene joys of nightmares win out over the sterile plateaus of dreams or each becomes the other when looked at obtusely, the crux being that we shouldn't cling to a central stable point of identity which then has to be positively grounded in order to justify its continued existence but instead embrace a kind of permanent free-fall without any hope of flying (while we're effectively doing just that). — Baden

I think I see what you're saying. Joy in the absurd gets us through. Cioran's ironic musings is a kind of intertia of grounding. Best to keep a distance so as to look at it from the outside than to be thrown about by its emotional waves. More to the point, suicide would be taking the optimism too seriously, as it is a failed optimism. Really there is nowhere to go and nothing to do. There is a sort of existential paralysis with being born, that suicide does not undo.

Here's one:

I react like everyone else, even like those I most despise; but I make up for it by deploring every action I commit, good or bad. — E.M. Cioran, Trouble with Being BornE.M. Cioran, Trouble with Being Born

This one might have something to do with the idea that by acting one is legitimizing the very grounds of being. But we cannot help but act. @Baden This might have something to do similar to the repose and not to get immersed in the emotions.

More to the point, suicide would be taking the optimism too seriously, as it is a failed optimism. Really there is nowhere to go and nothing to do. There is a sort of existential paralysis with being born, that suicide does not undo. — schopenhauer1

Yes, that's the root of the relevant quote I think.



It's hard to know how literally to take that one but the following two I dug up after a quick look certainly strengthen my conviction concerning how Cioran's pessimism functioned for him and how I suspect it does for others too:

"The fact that life has no meaning is a reason to live - moreover, the only one."

"I don't need any support, advice, or compassion, because even if I am the most ruinous man, I still feel so powerful, so strong and fierce. For I am the only one that lives without hope."

(And by extension my attitude (now) that it's much more productive to focus on the function than argue over the content.)

(And by extension my attitude (now) that it's much more productive to focus on the function than argue over the content.) — Baden

Can you elaborate on that?

“It is not worth the bother of killing yourself, since you always kill yourself too late.”
― Emil Cioran, The Trouble with Being Born — schopenhauer1

This makes me think of my childhood (that time in my existence features the most genuinely happy moments I've experienced, which is saying something, since in general, my childhood wasn't that great, but my adolescence and adulthood have been worse without at least affording me the rare moment of escaped bliss). To me, this quote speaks of the time we all wonder if we'll ever know happiness before reaching the point where you wonder if you'll ever find it in yourself to even be hopeful enough to feel like before.

In my case, I think having died of my appendicitis at seven would have been a beautiful, fitting end to my life. Sure, I would've just been a random child who died, but my life ending now means I would be a great resource sapping, tumor of a failure who finally died.

The former would have been more dignified and kind.

You have to have already experienced/done/noticed in yourself the cruelty that makes going on even more torturous. That's why it's too late to kill yourself -- dying before would have already spared you that realization.

In my case, I think having died of my appendicitis at seven would have been a beautiful, fitting end to my life. Sure, I would've just been a random child who died, but my life ending now means I would be a great resource sapping, tumor of a failure who finally died.

The former would have been more dignified and kind. — THX1138

Wow, powerful and sad anecdote to exemplify the point. I think his main idea here is that every point you are to kill yourself was always too late. One cannot take back the very thing causing the anguish, and extinguishing the self would take away the very thing that would get the relief. It is a paralysis of action, the resignation that once one is here, one is stuck with existence, that it is futile to try any action. Any action, even suicide is a positive one, as one is acting at all. The only thing then is to reflect on all the contradictions and see the irony in it. This brought a subversive sense of joy to Cioran.

One cannot take back the very thing causing the anguish, and extinguishing the self would take away the very thing that would get the relief. It is a paralysis of action, the resignation that once one is here, one is stuck with existence, that it is futile to try any action. — schopenhauer1

I resonate with this. The reason one can feel existential is because there was a point in which we saw/were/were told/experienced something elusive and cherishable... something that in whatever recourse is snuffed from us or is made tantalizing. That cruelty restructures our existence irrevocably. If we had died a few seconds before, we would've been spared that painful adulteration of loss or corruption.

This brought a subversive sense of joy to Cioran. — schopenhauer1

I'm glad I expressed something that is a testament to Cioran (I meant to state).

"One does not inhabit a country; one inhabits a language. That is our country, our fatherland - and no other." -- E.M. Cioran

I find this to be profound, a in plain sight kind of truth. Language dictates what we talk about and how we talk about it. If I were to learn an old tribal language, I might find that 40% of the terminology is related to weather, war or Gods. A language is very telling of it's natives -- it's speakers.

”It is not worth the bother of killing yourself, since you always kill yourself too late.”

I don't much like this Cioran quote. I think it really is amplified apathy; it seems to reify that and approve of it, and I see it differently.

By the time you consider suicide it's already too late

Nope, it's always better to have less of something bad. This looks like black and white thinking to me.

Plus there is no "you" at all. The idea of a self is an illusion

I don't get this at all. I used to, then I stopped getting it. I understand that we're always changing, and we're a composite of subconscious processes, genetically-determined characteristics, memories, etc. But "I" exists in some form, even if it's just as a symbol which we all understand. That has physical presence in our neurons. People deploy this notion when it suits them, to wave away some issue. If "everything is an illusion" whatever that would mean, then it wouldn't conveniently only apply to suffering.

The stigma of failure and despair has to be removed from suicide and from those individuals who choose it. The bottom line is, their choice should be respected since it’s their life. I think everyone probably has a breaking point, even the people who swear they would never take their own life under any circumstances.

...life-affirming joy of pessimism is something we should all share in with a wry backward smile. It's the optimists who will kill you with their obvious lies, or you yourself if you cleave yourself to/with their words. Better to be at the bottom of the sea and realize you have gills than on a cruise ship heading for an ice-berg. — Baden

I've felt this way before, like having a macabre romance with pessimism. I've tried to turn from it, but I find nothing is candid and sincere than the intricacy of my own melancholy. Trying to futilly think otherwise has caused me pain and disappointment. There's a seemingly contradictory contentment in submerging oneself into their unhappiness.

I find this to be profound, a in plain sight kind of truth. Language dictates what we talk about and how we talk about it. If I were to learn an old tribal language, I might find that 40% of the terminology is related to weather, war or Gods. A language is very telling of it's natives -- it's speakers. — THX1138

Yes, this quote also makes me think of what the feeling is when someone is speaking a language you do not understand. Our mind's architecture is built very much on our primary language, and thus when there are other humans speaking a language we do not understand, we are alienated. We know there is sense being communicated, but we cannot make it out. We inhabit our own language's sphere of sense, and are cut off from others we do not know. It's like two trains passing in the night. We are right next to them, but we are not aware of their cognitive world.

I don't much like this Cioran quote. I think it really is amplified apathy; it seems to reify that and approve of it, and I see it differently. — Chisholm

Apathy yes, but more like inertia. There is no use killing yourself, it seems to convey, so in an odd way anti-suicide.

Nope, it's always better to have less of something bad. This looks like black and white thinking to me. — Chisholm

It's actually the opposite of black and white thinking. The compulsion to end your life is very black and white, but the reality is that it is the wrong target. We are already born in the first place.. this is a target we can never do anything about.

Plus there is no "you" at all. The idea of a self is an illusion — Chisholm

I didn't say this so you may want to address that person. Do you know how to quote? You drag and highlight the passage and a "quote" button will display next to the highlighted text. You can click that button and it will automatically quote the passage in the text editor field below.

I've felt this way before, like having a macabre romance with pessimism. I've tried to turn from it, but I find nothing is candid and sincere than the intricacy of my own melancholy. Trying to futilly think otherwise has caused me pain and disappointment. There's a seemingly contradictory contentment in submerging oneself into their unhappiness. — THX1138

Yes, this might be my theme all along with pessimism. There is actually an odd therapeutic joy in knowing it and sharing it with others. To be deny the pessimism, or to be "optimistic" one has to be in habits and routines that will keep the darkness out...until some event forces its way in. Rather, it is better to incorporate the dark, so as to understand it, and allow us to properly align ourselves with the situation. I think Cioran is closer to Schopenhauer and the metaphysical pessimists than @Baden might give credit. Our very consciousness is like a dagger- that is the metaphysical statement. The "knowing" of this truth is the epistemic one. So what Cioran is doing is saying "Hey, this is metaphysically negative, but the fact that I know that this is metaphysically negative, brings a joy of its own". It is the knowing of our own situation that enthralls Cioran, and who is perhaps showing the way of living with pessimism on a daily basis, by simply understanding the very ironic ways it instantiates itself.

Speaking of consciousness..

If we could sleep twenty-four hours a day, we would soon return to the primordial slime, the beatitude of that perfect torpor before Genesis-the dream of every consciousness sick of itself. — E.M. Cioran, Trouble with being born

Consciousness is much more than the thorn, it is the dagger in the flesh. — E.M. Cioran, Trouble with being born

Anyone want to unpack those?

To be deny the pessimism, or to be "optimistic" one has to be in habits and routines that will keep the darkness out...until some event forces its way in. — schopenhauer1

I feel that like optimism, pessimism isn't something people can just give into. I haven't looked into E.M. Cioran's Pessimistic philosophy (other than the Google search I made of him a few hours ago), but, I am very well acquainted with the authentic pessimism that's been in my own life. I'm not talking a "boo-hoo" slandering of everything considered ideal or standard out of some disallowed denial -- for most people whom do this, these are temporary rants of resentment anyhow. I mean a sustained, persisting feeling of accumulative deepening sadness that envelopes your thoughts and alters your senses. Pessimism gives you the sense that it's something that has chosen you -- like you've mentioned, by some event that forces it's way in.

I believe this is also the case for intense Optimism. It "chooses" it's vessels. I don't mean this in any supernatural way btw, more that I know when I say something poetically pessimistic and someone is able to channel and in turn state something which shares an affinity to what I've said -- as opposed to looking at me like I have three heads and bluntly blurting out "Deriving happiness from sadness is an oxy-moron, moron. Makes no sense" -- then, I know they are attuned to this kind of relentless pessimism, as must be the case for Optimists.

Do you see it that way too, that Pessimism isn't so much applicable to everyone but that it is a dynamic that is pertinant and significant?

Do you see it that way too, that Pessimism isn't so much applicable to everyone but that it is a dynamic that is pertinant and significant? — THX1138

I don't see it as a disposition or a mood but what is the case. In other words, metaphysically, life is structurally and contingently suffering. A little while back, I had a thread no one responded to which pretty much laid out some examples of Philosophical Pessimism. See here: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/5981/schopenhauers-deprivationalism

Schopenhauer's characterization of human life can be distilled into a doctrine of deprivationalism as it pertains to human needs and wants. Roughly, deprivationalism is the idea that humans are always at a deficit. When born they are always running a debt by way of "dealing with" or "overcoming". — schopenhauer1

But not all Humans translate this universal need into how they philosophize the world. I guess my take on Pessimism isn't so encompassing. It seems to me many people are good at dodging the consequences of Pessimism if this dynamic is held. In your view, only more unfortunate individuals become attuned to this characterization?

Then there are the "absolute" goods. These I call "absolute" as they are enjoyed universally, and simply intrinsically seem to make people happy. These are 1) physical pleasure 2) aesthetic pleasure (including humor, art, philosophizing, books, etc.), 3) feelings of accomplishment 4) relationships (being with a significant other, friends, family) 5) learning (obtaining information about subjects one wants to know) 6) Flow-states (being "in the zone" in some activity that matches one's interests and abilities) 7) Fulfilling an idealized role (good parent, good worker, good friend, good government official, etc.).

However, for each of these absolute goods, there is always some deficit of not obtaining or having to even get any one of them in the first place. 1) Physical pleasures often lead to wanting more, better, pleasures (hedonic treadmill). Also, they can be addictive or used as a crutch to avoid other realities. 2) aesthetic pleasure often requires more effort. It is not readily available like physical pleasure is, and is harder to maintain or perceive at times. 3) accomplishment obviously comes with its opposite of missing the goal, failing, not achieving one's ends, contingent circumstances getting in the way, and then one has to overcome the feelings of disappointment or frustration. 4) Relationships obviously can lead to strife, drama, and hurt feelings. 5) learning can lead to learning painful things, can often come at a cost of much exhausting work, there can be the fear of losing knowledge, of others knowing more, of having an unbalanced learning of one form of minutia. 6) Flow-states are good but hard to achieve, can lead to disappointment when one gets out of a flow-state and much of life just isn't in a flow-state anyways (other than maybe from the ideas of gurus trying to sell this idea), 7) Role fulfillment can lead to being less aware of one's freedom to not have to fill a role, one can often disappoint and not live up to a goal, etc. — schopenhauer1

Well, sure (I read all the other points you point out btw). I still don't think Pessimism (nor existentialism) is universal enough to be applicable this way. People overcome sadness all the time, unless it's just a sham and their refusal to express their unhappiness is assuaged by distractions in which there are lapses of not unhappiness, but that are otherwise a fabrication of hollow happiness. I also never believe a sense of purpose necessarily (not even often) entails happiness, only meaningfulness that might happen to bring either happiness or sadness.

You do not have to be aware of your own state of suffering. There is the primary lived experience, and the self-awareness of it. The deprivation is part of the structural suffering. That is to say, if we were completely content we would be completely full or completely nothing. The fact that we have any needs, wants, goals, aspirations, restlessness, angst, means there is a deprivation in the equation in the first place. This angst underlies all human endeavors. I usually formulate the three basic categories of this deprivation: Survival, Comfort-Seeking/Maintenance, and Entertainment-Seeking. All three are manifested via a cultural context. They may have different contents, but all of the same basic form of these three categories.

Well, sure (I read all the other points you point out btw). I still don't think Pessimism (nor existentialism) is universal enough to be applicable this way. People overcome sadness all the time, unless it's just a sham and their refusal to express their unhappiness is assuaged by distractions in which there are lapses of not unhappiness, but that are otherwise a fabrication of hollow happiness. I also never believe a sense of purpose necessarily (not even often) entails happiness, only meaningfulness that might happen to bring either happiness or sadness. — THX1138

Philosophical Pessimism is not the common word "pessimism" (the glass is always half empty). You can be "happy" or "contented" at any particular time, and still understand the world as a Philosophical Pessimism.

If we could sleep twenty-four hours a day, we would soon return to the primordial slime, the beatitude of that perfect torpor before Genesis-the dream of every consciousness sick of itself. — E.M. Cioran, Trouble with being born

This sounds similar to viewing consciousness and existence much like the Buddhist concept of dukkha, the clinging of impermanent states of happiness being ultimately unsatisfactory and something one should strive to release themselves from.

Consciousness is much more than the thorn, it is the dagger in the flesh. — E.M. Cioran, Trouble with being born

I am pessimistic, I don't think I can say that I'm in complete agreement with everything Pessimism school of thought proposes.

I guess true Pessimists view sadness as a sort of ever present gravity, while happiness in contrast is the work against being weighed down by this gravity.

Pessimism more seems like an attitude to me. Not everyone is able to be happy, but are all certainly eligible to have tragedy hurl them in the rabbit hole of perpetual unhappiness, or to in effect take away the full potency of the happiness once derived from fulfilment.

This sounds similar to viewing consciousness and existence much like the Buddhist concept of dukkha, the clinging of impermanent states of happiness being ultimately unsatisfactory and something one should strive to release themselves from. — THX1138

It does.

I guess true Pessimists view sadness as a sort of ever present gravity, while happiness in contrast is the work against being weighed down by this gravity.

Pessimism more seems like an attitude to me. Not everyone is able to be happy, but are all certainly eligible to have tragedy hurl them in the rabbit hole of perpetual unhappiness, or to in effect take away the full potency of the happiness once derived from fulfilment. — THX1138

This is precisely the definition of pessimism which is misconstrued with Philosophical Pessimism. As I see it, PP is more about a metaphysical characterization of daily normative-functioning human life. It focuses on two aspects of suffering- the contingent AND the structural. It is the PP's job then to argue HOW the human life is structurally suffering. The Buddhist notion of deprivation correlates with this structural aspect. But in the West there is of course Schopenhauer's Will, Kierkegaard's angst, etc. They are all roughly correlating the same principle- the deprived nature of humans at any given time. I have further broken down what I see to be three basic categories of how this angst manifests in daily human life- survival/comfort-seeking/entertainment-seeking. Our goals are a combination of these three categories punctuated with the desires for the various inherent "goods" I mentioned before. All of this, however (whether goods are in the equation or not), is still very much a deprivational world of want, need, desire, goals.

Now, add to this the CONTINGENT forms of suffering. This is not "necessarily" built into the system, but probabilistically occur nonetheless and is situational. In other words, you falling and breaking your knee is probable, but may not happen at all to you. It is also situational in that it depended on the circumstances of that time and place. It was not guaranteed to happen to all humans. However, there is much contingent suffering in life. Many situational things small and large effect/affect us. In fact, we even have psychological mechanisms like the Pollyanna principle which allow us to project better outcomes in the future, and look at past harmful events with rose-tinted glasses.

Consciousness is much more than the thorn, it is the dagger in the flesh.
— E.M. Cioran, Trouble with being born

What do you think that is conveying @Bitter Crank?

I don't know.
All these aphorisms assume i own my life.
If I was that uncertain about what it is for, I would not also assume I knew what was going on.
It all seems to be a language game set up where the speaker loses in the end.
Like the dreams we all have.