Like insisting on incinerating the skin of a piece of fruit that's already been eaten. It's too late to do any damage worthwhile. If life is what you despise, your life such as it had any substance has been drained from you by the time you wish to end it. — Baden
I think Cioran points to his game here, which is the same game played by most extreme pessimists, and that is to productively externalise their negativity as a process of catharsis in order precisely to make life worth living, or feel so, so long as said orientation is always presented as its obverse. Cioran's pessimism is itself the cloak of identity which refutes its central premise. He lived a long, productive and creative life not despite, but because of, his professed disgust for existence, which professed disgust he milked for every psychic drop of energy it could provide. And this secret life-affirming joy of pessimism is something we should all share in with a wry backward smile. It's the optimists who will kill you with their obvious lies, or you yourself if you cleave yourself to/with their words. Better to be at the bottom of the sea and realize you have gills than on a cruise ship heading for an ice-berg. — Baden
Its not possible to suicide prior to coming into existence, but now that you exist, it is too late. Having coming into existence as a being afflicted by welfare states, the harm has already been done. It now makes no sense to suicide as a way to improve your state of welfare, as you will destroy that which could be worse or better off by the act of lethally harming yourself. — Inyenzi
So, you're basically saying that identity formation is motivated by optimistic thought or wishful thinking? — Wallows
And, those who look past the dissonance of pessimism are more fit to live? — Wallows
A sort of ironic distance from the self and its emotional proclivities then, as achieved by daring them to do their worst while maintaining as open as possible an intellectual stance, is likely a better bet for the more infatigably sensitive souls among us than the contrary faithful overidentification. So, the obscene joys of nightmares win out over the sterile plateaus of dreams or each becomes the other when looked at obtusely, the crux being that we shouldn't cling to a central stable point of identity which then has to be positively grounded in order to justify its continued existence but instead embrace a kind of permanent free-fall without any hope of flying (while we're effectively doing just that). — Baden
I react like everyone else, even like those I most despise; but I make up for it by deploring every action I commit, good or bad. — E.M. Cioran, Trouble with Being BornE.M. Cioran, Trouble with Being Born
More to the point, suicide would be taking the optimism too seriously, as it is a failed optimism. Really there is nowhere to go and nothing to do. There is a sort of existential paralysis with being born, that suicide does not undo. — schopenhauer1
(And by extension my attitude (now) that it's much more productive to focus on the function than argue over the content.) — Baden
“It is not worth the bother of killing yourself, since you always kill yourself too late.”
― Emil Cioran, The Trouble with Being Born — schopenhauer1
In my case, I think having died of my appendicitis at seven would have been a beautiful, fitting end to my life. Sure, I would've just been a random child who died, but my life ending now means I would be a great resource sapping, tumor of a failure who finally died.
The former would have been more dignified and kind. — THX1138
One cannot take back the very thing causing the anguish, and extinguishing the self would take away the very thing that would get the relief. It is a paralysis of action, the resignation that once one is here, one is stuck with existence, that it is futile to try any action. — schopenhauer1
This brought a subversive sense of joy to Cioran. — schopenhauer1
”It is not worth the bother of killing yourself, since you always kill yourself too late.”
By the time you consider suicide it's already too late
Plus there is no "you" at all. The idea of a self is an illusion
...life-affirming joy of pessimism is something we should all share in with a wry backward smile. It's the optimists who will kill you with their obvious lies, or you yourself if you cleave yourself to/with their words. Better to be at the bottom of the sea and realize you have gills than on a cruise ship heading for an ice-berg. — Baden
I find this to be profound, a in plain sight kind of truth. Language dictates what we talk about and how we talk about it. If I were to learn an old tribal language, I might find that 40% of the terminology is related to weather, war or Gods. A language is very telling of it's natives -- it's speakers. — THX1138
I don't much like this Cioran quote. I think it really is amplified apathy; it seems to reify that and approve of it, and I see it differently. — Chisholm
Nope, it's always better to have less of something bad. This looks like black and white thinking to me. — Chisholm
Plus there is no "you" at all. The idea of a self is an illusion — Chisholm
I've felt this way before, like having a macabre romance with pessimism. I've tried to turn from it, but I find nothing is candid and sincere than the intricacy of my own melancholy. Trying to futilly think otherwise has caused me pain and disappointment. There's a seemingly contradictory contentment in submerging oneself into their unhappiness. — THX1138
If we could sleep twenty-four hours a day, we would soon return to the primordial slime, the beatitude of that perfect torpor before Genesis-the dream of every consciousness sick of itself. — E.M. Cioran, Trouble with being born
Consciousness is much more than the thorn, it is the dagger in the flesh. — E.M. Cioran, Trouble with being born
To be deny the pessimism, or to be "optimistic" one has to be in habits and routines that will keep the darkness out...until some event forces its way in. — schopenhauer1
Do you see it that way too, that Pessimism isn't so much applicable to everyone but that it is a dynamic that is pertinant and significant? — THX1138
Schopenhauer's characterization of human life can be distilled into a doctrine of deprivationalism as it pertains to human needs and wants. Roughly, deprivationalism is the idea that humans are always at a deficit. When born they are always running a debt by way of "dealing with" or "overcoming". — schopenhauer1
Then there are the "absolute" goods. These I call "absolute" as they are enjoyed universally, and simply intrinsically seem to make people happy. These are 1) physical pleasure 2) aesthetic pleasure (including humor, art, philosophizing, books, etc.), 3) feelings of accomplishment 4) relationships (being with a significant other, friends, family) 5) learning (obtaining information about subjects one wants to know) 6) Flow-states (being "in the zone" in some activity that matches one's interests and abilities) 7) Fulfilling an idealized role (good parent, good worker, good friend, good government official, etc.).
However, for each of these absolute goods, there is always some deficit of not obtaining or having to even get any one of them in the first place. 1) Physical pleasures often lead to wanting more, better, pleasures (hedonic treadmill). Also, they can be addictive or used as a crutch to avoid other realities. 2) aesthetic pleasure often requires more effort. It is not readily available like physical pleasure is, and is harder to maintain or perceive at times. 3) accomplishment obviously comes with its opposite of missing the goal, failing, not achieving one's ends, contingent circumstances getting in the way, and then one has to overcome the feelings of disappointment or frustration. 4) Relationships obviously can lead to strife, drama, and hurt feelings. 5) learning can lead to learning painful things, can often come at a cost of much exhausting work, there can be the fear of losing knowledge, of others knowing more, of having an unbalanced learning of one form of minutia. 6) Flow-states are good but hard to achieve, can lead to disappointment when one gets out of a flow-state and much of life just isn't in a flow-state anyways (other than maybe from the ideas of gurus trying to sell this idea), 7) Role fulfillment can lead to being less aware of one's freedom to not have to fill a role, one can often disappoint and not live up to a goal, etc. — schopenhauer1
Well, sure (I read all the other points you point out btw). I still don't think Pessimism (nor existentialism) is universal enough to be applicable this way. People overcome sadness all the time, unless it's just a sham and their refusal to express their unhappiness is assuaged by distractions in which there are lapses of not unhappiness, but that are otherwise a fabrication of hollow happiness. I also never believe a sense of purpose necessarily (not even often) entails happiness, only meaningfulness that might happen to bring either happiness or sadness. — THX1138
If we could sleep twenty-four hours a day, we would soon return to the primordial slime, the beatitude of that perfect torpor before Genesis-the dream of every consciousness sick of itself. — E.M. Cioran, Trouble with being born
Consciousness is much more than the thorn, it is the dagger in the flesh. — E.M. Cioran, Trouble with being born
This sounds similar to viewing consciousness and existence much like the Buddhist concept of dukkha, the clinging of impermanent states of happiness being ultimately unsatisfactory and something one should strive to release themselves from. — THX1138
I guess true Pessimists view sadness as a sort of ever present gravity, while happiness in contrast is the work against being weighed down by this gravity.
Pessimism more seems like an attitude to me. Not everyone is able to be happy, but are all certainly eligible to have tragedy hurl them in the rabbit hole of perpetual unhappiness, or to in effect take away the full potency of the happiness once derived from fulfilment. — THX1138
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