Could we drop Bowman's usage into a formal English statement and have it mean the same thing as the old n-word? — frank

It just depends on the individual assigning meaning, of course.

It's worth pointing out that mention is not racist, but insisting on mention because it's not racist misses some nuance here. — Baden

That nuance being that some people find the mention of the word offensive, even though the context is acceptable. There is a proclivity in this situation to automatically respond by granting them authority and suitably limiting speech in accordance with their wishes. That's what I disagree with. On a personal level, if it was a friend of mine, or someone I respected, or there were other practical considerations, like those you mentioned earlier for example, then I might well grant that wish. But even so, I would still make the case that that's the wrong way to react. They should change, not me. The problem stems from them.

I agree it's a matter of etiquette, and I agree it's not always right to insist on being able to mention it. But it might be important to insist on it sometimes. I insist on being able to do it here, for example. — jamalrob

Exactly. I think that it's a mark of intelligence and maturity if one is able to distance oneself from all of the hooha, and just have an honest, open and direct discussion about it. If we want to discuss the word "nigger", let's just discuss the word "nigger".

It comes down to full context. Here on the forum, for example, we're writing so we can use scare quotes to make mention absolutely clear. Harder to do that in speaking. But I've been persuaded at least that there are more instances where mention and even use should be insisted on than I would have thought.

...but I wouldn't want mention of it against the rules here either. — Baden

Certainly not.

It just depends on the individual assigning meaning, of course. — Terrapin Station

Yep.

There's an old name for them that nobody uses anymore because it had the n-word in it. As far as I know, there isn't a new word, though. The last time I heard someone try to speak about them, they just pointed and said "those." — frank

I don't believe that the official name of those rocks were N-rocks or something similar. That's probably what people called them because poor black people used them for building or something and the name has its roots in racism. It's just really doubtful that from some cosmic coincidence an ancient native tribe or something called them that and now we're stuck with a now politically incorrect name.

I could go over all the creative ways the N word has been injected into various other words, but it'd be a fairly racist recitation, considering many here would think the way it's been used is funny, so I'll spare everyone.

The argument you presented is a ridiculous solution to the white quest to use it anyway. That quest needs no solution. It's just a handful of white people being laughable. If they aren't actually trying to get a laugh, they're just stupid. — frank

Ugh! That is so narrow-minded. You mentioned that you were mixed race earlier. So bloody what? As I mentioned, my mixed race friend and I were of like minds on this topic. He wasn't mischaracterising this as a group of white people on a quest, as you are. You don't have special authority just because you're mixed race. He's not white. He's also mixed race, and his opinion differs from yours. Neither my friend nor I are on a quest. We both saw through the colour of our skins and accepted the points we were making on their own merit. We both agreed that there are acceptable contexts in which the mention and use of the terminology is acceptable, and that in this respect, the colour of one's skin shouldn't matter.

Exactly. I think that it's a mark of intelligence and maturity if one is able to distance oneself from all of the hooha, and just have an honest, open and direct discussion about it. If we want to discuss the word "nigger", let's just discuss the word "nigger". — S

I'm more comfortable not using it, so I don't. Some people don't say Fuck for the same reason. I say Fuck, but not the N word.

I'm more comfortable not using it, so I don't. Some people don't say Fuck for the same reason. I say Fuck, but not the N word. — Hanover

Okay. Oddly inconsistent, but okay. If you don't feel comfortable enough, then you don't feel comfortable enough. What else is there to say? I would urge you to get over that, but I can't force you to change how you feel about it.

You mentioned that you were mixed race earlier. — S

Everyone pretty much is. You're probably Anglo and Saxon or maybe Scotch and Irish. Most black Americans have some European blood in them. This whole tribal distinction, community distinction thing, or whatever arbitrary line we're trying to draw where some can use the N word and others not, I'm just not buying despite @Baden's assurance I'm overlooking a logical basis for disparate treatment.

Everyone pretty much is. — Hanover

Yes, but that's stretching the term beyond meaning, so that the distinction is lost. It's just not practical or useful to do that.

I would urge you to get over that, but I can't force you to change how you feel about it. — S

There'd be little gained if I overcame my limitations and was finally able to speak the N word with greater comfort. It offers me one less area to get myself into trouble at least.

I don't believe that the official name of those rocks were N-rocks or something similar. — Hanover

I guess a geologist would know.

Yes, but that's stretching the term beyond meaning, so that the distinction is lost. It's just not practical or useful to do that. — S

It is useful. My son is half Jewish, so he checked the mixed race box on some application for something for preferential treatment.

What is the specific name of the rock you're referencing?

There'd be little gained if I overcame my limitations and was finally able to speak the N word with greater comfort. It offers me one less area to get myself into trouble at least. — Hanover

I'm not thinking about this in terms of practical advantages. It's a matter of principle. I am opposed, in principle, to self-censorship. Why do it? The discomfort seems irrational.

They were called "niggerheads."

I just googled that trying to find the geological name for those rocks and I found this:

The term was once widely used for all sorts of things, including nautical bollards[3][4] and consumer products including soap, chewing tobacco, stove polish, canned oysters and shrimp, golf tees, and toy cap pistols, among others. It was often used for geographic features such as hills and rocks and geological objects such as geodes.[5][6] The term appears in several US patents for mechanical devices prior to about 1950.[7][8] Languages other than English have used similar terms to describe chocolate-coated marshmallow treats. — wikipedia

But that article doesn't mention the spherical rocks. They're pretty rare. Maybe that's why.

I'm just not buying despite Baden's assurance I'm overlooking a logical basis for disparate treatment. — Hanover

As long as you don't read or respond to any of the actual argument by linguists that there is a case for considering usage as fundamentally different (and therefore a logical basis for disparate treatment of such usage) you're on solid ground here. :up:

Everyone pretty much is. You're probably Anglo and Saxon or maybe Scotch and Irish. — Hanover

Judging by the levels of fried Mars Bar in his bloodstream, we can be confident @S is 100% pure Scottish highlander.

My question is whether the N-word specifically has become a word that is per se insulting, regardless of context, where its mere utterance is a sin. — Hanover

Words without context are just noise.
People make of them what they will; as is the case when left to interpret shadows.
So perhaps it's not whether the word has become insulting, but why has it come to be interpreted as insulting?

In other news, broadcasters not wishing to be sacked in a shit-storm, are advised not to used pictures of chimps in their tweets about newborn babies unless they are quite sure that the child is entirely white.

And actually, it's just as bad if the child is white, and even if you have a working class accent.

"Can't take a joke?" - the endless complaint of the bully called out.

But back to taboo words. It is of course essential for taboo words to be used in order to be forbidden. And it is a matter of class distinction to know the rules and conform to the etiquette.

Not even relevant for pointing out your argument wasn't representative of how things work in practice.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

As long as you don't read or respond to any of the actual argument by linguists that there is a case for considering usage as fundamentally different (and therefore a logical basis for disparate treatment of such usage) you're on solid ground here. :up: — Baden

So salty. Definitely Celtic. You lack the refinement of an Anglo.

But that article doesn't mention the spherical rocks. They're pretty rare. Maybe that's why. — frank

No, they called them as they did because they reminded some redneck of how black men's heads looked and so he and Bubba coined the term and they laughed their cracker ass heads off. Apparently the name got passed down through the generations like their crossed eyes and webbed toes and it fell upon your ears and you got to share it with us.

A hearty thank you for that.

A hearty thank you for that. — Hanover

I thought some of the eurotrash on the forum might like the story.

Or maybe a chink.

,..they called them as they did because they reminded some redneck of how black men's heads looked and so he and Bubba coined the term and they laughed their cracker ass heads off. Apparently the name got passed down through the generations like their crossed eyes and webbed toes and it fell upon your ears and you got to share it with us. — Hanover

The term was used in a US governmental geological survey, 1886. See p15.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://pubs.usgs.gov/bul/28/report.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwia5vLD2JHiAhUgRBUIHc8QCcgQFjAFegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw2iUsYUZjxMSrN6PWKCMAtg

Wow. So geologists are racist as hell as it turns out.

Wow. So geologists are racist as hell as it turns out. — frank

1886 wasn't the most progressive of years.

Ironically irreverent... you have no idea how much energy it takes to maintain that stance.

It's the same word. — frank

The phonetic difference between "nigger(s)" and "nigga(s)" probably has its origin in the AAVE tendency to drop the final 'r'. [Dropping the final 'r' is also characteristic of white New England speech, completely unrelated to AAVE.] AAVE has at least some origins in white southern speech, which uses a soft 'r' pronunciation.

The pronunciation of the final 'r' is a good geographical marker. Midwesterners (broadly defined) tend to use a hard final 'r'. There are regional and class differences in pronunciation in the US, and even more so in the UK.

Whether "nigger(s)" and "nigga(s)" is one word with two racially inflected pronunciations or one word (or two) with racial inflections and two separate meanings seems to me unsettled. Time will tell. Lots of words have had decades of popularity, then disappeared (and sometimes, lamentably, have refused to go away.

One of the neologisms I have tracked is "get-go". "She was popular from the get-go." According to informed sources, it appeared in 1962. I first heard in Massachusetts in 1968. I see it in print occasionally, but hear it used only rarely in my Minneapolis milieu. According to Google Ngram, the phrase "from the get go" took off about 1990. We are at peak get go now.

Here is an example of culturally limited knowledge. Google Ngram measures the frequency of words in print. Usually, 1800 is the starting date of its measurements. Here's the Ngram for nigger and nigga. "Nigga" is obviously used more often than indicated here, but it's use isn't showing up in print.