So... with a nine, what kind of person aught I be according to the statistics? What sort of maladjustments aught I have, if I were someone whose childhood traumas actually manifested into the aforementioned maladjustments?

:yikes:

Just read the wiki article...

Ah well, you can't please everyone. I suppose this is just one more example of my having fallen through the cracks. I suppose I like being an exception to the rule. That's my normal.

Although, I've certainly been a man-whore at times in my life. It's easy enough to do, and it's sooo much fun! I still smoke cigarettes. I drink maybe once or twice a year. Thoughts of suicide? Not even once. Drug abuse? Nope. Experimented with all sorts of things. Not my cup of tea. I like sobriety much better. Thoughts are clear and consistent that way. Depression? I don't think so. Lazy? Surely I could do more. Given my history, I'm good with where I am. Some who know me well and are not from that background have said that they are quite amazed that I am who I am.

I certainly do not take credit for not having fallen into worse conditions. Some obviously do. That's too bad. But, it's not like I had to work at it. My dad(one of 'em anyway) used to say "I'd rather be lucky than good!" I just do what I want to do, and try to make sure that what I want to do is what I ought be doing...

I'll pass on having kids with you. You look like the crazy guy who gets all sorts of credit even though he could not get his own thoughts together. Guess that happens when you have all the right friends in all the right places.

You've drawn a weird correlation between age and creativity...

I'll pass on having kids with you. — creativesoul

*Laughs*

You look like the crazy guy who gets all sorts of credit even though he could not get his own thoughts together. — creativesoul

Oh come now. Let's not commit the sin of dismissing hard work where it is due.

Guess that happens when you have all the right friends in all the right places. — creativesoul

I suppose so.

You've drawn a weird correlation between age and creativity... — creativesoul

Well, it's just that most breakthroughs in science or philosophy come at the age-range of 20-30. Am I mistaken here?

Guess that happens when you have all the right friends in all the right places.
— creativesoul

I suppose so. — Wallows

No need to suppose my friend. Pick yourself up a copy of the letters to Cambridge if you really want to know Wittgenstein. His personal correspondence is vital to knowing him. Guess who picked up all of Witt's broken disparate pieces for him?

You've drawn a weird correlation between age and creativity...
— creativesoul

Well, it's just that most breakthroughs in science or philosophy come at the age-range of 20-30. Am I mistaken here? — Wallows

You think all breakthroughs are existentially dependent up creativity?

I would say that they are more dependent upon something to be broken.

Habits of thought/belief.

Oh come now. Let's not commit the sin of dismissing hard work where it is due. — Wallows

Thank God for all those that assembled Witt's otherwise broken down chains of thought into a reasonable facsimile of a philosophical work, huh?

Anyway, back to what underwrites to the topic. A philosophical problem...

Likelihood... Statistics... Probability...

I am proof positive that knowing the likelihood and/or probability that X will take place requires knowing all possible influences of X taking place.

What has the study yielded that's of any good use to people who have been subjected to those sorts of lifestyles growing up(or those who've yet to have been but will be one day)?

Everything that you pointed out from experience seems to imply the above to some degree. — Wallows

I'm just glad I'm not complaining about nothing. He had this weird way of twisting everything so that he was doing it for the greater good and was never wrong. He was wrong often.

Do you want to have kids, why or why not? — Wallows

My experiences have made me very indifferent on a lot of things. If my partner wants children, then I would have them for sure, but if it were just up to me then maybe when I can guarantee them a world where they will have all the opportunities they need to become successful. Maybe. I'm not too concerned with leaving my legacy behind in the form of children, I'd rather do it in a more important way.

Anyway, the real abuse was emotional neglect and the abusive tendencies of a male who did not know how to express his feelings in my view TogetherTurtle. I hope you can fill in that void. I just wallow in my depression. — Wallows

I think that hits spot on. It's weird to put so many memories and events into such few words, but also sort of comforting as well. As far as filling the void, I've become pretty ok at handling it. I don't think the weight of not having a father figure will ever just go away, but I can operate regularly (I hope) and can contribute to society so I think it's ok now.

As for you, live the best life you can. If your concern with having children is finding the right person, take your time. Take your time, but don't waste it. There does seem to be a limit in age as to where the eligible partners vanish. That is probably in a decade for you though. It would be a shame for you not to have children (adopted or otherwise) because you seem fully fit to raise them. If your concern is "knowing how to raise kids", I don't think anyone actually knows anyway. You'll be fine.

Depression is another one of those self-fulfilling prophecy things. It's very hard for me to make plans with friends at all, and forget about talking to girls. Sometimes you just have to force yourself to do things you know will make you happy, even if you think you don't deserve them. It's a work in progress kinda thing, so try and stop wallowing and start exploring. That, of course, is easier said than done.

What was your score again?

5. Not as high as yours, luckily. 9 is just insane. My stuff was already relatively tame, especially next to wherever you grew up.

Cool. Don't feel sorry for me though. I'm good. More than good. I actually laughed at my score because I didn't think my life was all that bad. Still don't.

Interesting though that you didn't feel loved, and I did. Perhaps feeling loved holds more weight for us than the other considerations...

Interesting though that you didn't feel loved, and I did. — creativesoul

To some extent, having something is better than nothing, but the opposite is also true. If someone does something bad to you, you're at least part of their life. I was always just a pawn in my dad's plans. Of course, I would rather have that than leaving people guessing what didn't happen to me.

Cool. Don't feel sorry for me though. I'm good. More than good. I actually laughed at my score because I didn't think my life was all that bad. — creativesoul

I think that often people see their childhood as the norm and that leads to normalizing bad habits. It really is hard to wake up and realize that you didn't have a normal childhood. I know the test isn't perfect, but you did get an A, so I have few doubts that there was some kind of abuse there. Of course, the past is in the past, all you can do now is hope that you can be as normal as possible, (which you seem to be doing well at).

Perhaps feeling loved holds more weight for us than the other considerations... — creativesoul

I think very much so. Even if you are loved, it is sometimes hard to feel loved. At least for me. It's hard for me to believe anyone loves me, not because I necessarily do anything wrong, but because I wouldn't love me. I probably wouldn't even talk to me.

I think the evolutionary implications of such a thing are interesting. It clearly incentivizes living in groups, but also seems to encourage those who already are set to succeed. If your mother loves you, she will nurture you to make you strong, but feeling loved also gives strength. It goes to show how powerful tribal living is if love is so strong and so tied to it.

I'm just glad I'm not complaining about nothing. — TogetherTurtle

Well, this forum has a tendency towards personal issues that go unrecognized in daily life. Whereas philosophy can be therapeutic for some, like me.

He had this weird way of twisting everything so that he was doing it for the greater good and was never wrong. He was wrong often. — TogetherTurtle

Yeah, being wrong sucks. And, all those psychological defense mechanisms can go haywire.

Maybe. I'm not too concerned with leaving my legacy behind in the form of children, I'd rather do it in a more important way. — TogetherTurtle

Cool, but, what do you mean by that? I'm much more concerned about my sanity than projecting my issues and passing my defective genes to a new progeny.

It's weird to put so many memories and events into such few words, but also sort of comforting as well. — TogetherTurtle

That's philosophy for ya. Hence, why I am quite addicted to it.

I don't think the weight of not having a father figure will ever just go away, but I can operate regularly (I hope) and can contribute to society so I think it's ok now. — TogetherTurtle

Well, I looked up your profile and your favorite philosopher is Diogenes. So, how do your Cynical philosophy with contributing to society?

It would be a shame for you not to have children (adopted or otherwise) because you seem fully fit to raise them. — TogetherTurtle

Yeah, I'm contemplating that issue as we speak. It seems to me that I have no desire to want to have children, so that's a big issue to overcome in my world.

If your concern is "knowing how to raise kids", I don't think anyone actually knows anyway. You'll be fine. — TogetherTurtle

Thanks.

Depression is another one of those self-fulfilling prophecy things. It's very hard for me to make plans with friends at all, and forget about talking to girls. Sometimes you just have to force yourself to do things you know will make you happy, even if you think you don't deserve them. It's a work in progress kinda thing, so try and stop wallowing and start exploring. That, of course, is easier said than done. — TogetherTurtle

Yes; but, wallowing is healthy. To wallow is to appreciate. I have grown content with all my issues and things in life. My psychiatrist is supremely frustrated at my lack of concern for myself and others except for my mom. Anyway, depression is a form of coping with the issues that the world presents. I don't think I will ever get undepressed. I have grown to like the black dog that never leaves your side. Society shuns being depressed hence so much anxiety over the issue. I don't like stress and tend to isolate myself from it. So, depression ain't all that bad. I'd rather be supremely depressed than deal with constant and persistent anxiety.

I do wonder about the benefits of what we call “trauma”? Is all “abuse” necessarily unavoidable in life? Does abuse leave some people in a better position to cope with the hardships of life or not?

If we’re talking about raising children here then we know there is no instruction book and that there are an endless variety of ‘models’ ... how are we, in our ignorance, to judge what is the best lone of engagement for any given human being?

It seems to me the best we can do is be aware of mistakes we make yet not dwell on them too much. Sadly some people have a natural disposition to dwell on them and we end up with hypertensive care towards children where less would be more fitting.

I think what we personally imagine the ‘perfect’ childhood to be is more damaging than an imagined ‘imperfect’ one ... although at the extreme ends I’m unsure how we could compare them?

Cool, but, what do you mean by that? I'm much more concerned about my sanity than projecting my issues and passing my defective genes to a new progeny. — Wallows

Well, I looked up your profile and your favorite philosopher is Diogenes. So, how do your Cynical philosophy with contributing to society? — Wallows

I do think that most people are out for themselves, but I think that can be beneficial. If we lock what people want behind work that helps others, they will do it, and help other people whether they want to or not. Essentially, I like Diogenes because he is a great example of how cynicism can be used but often goes to waste because people disregard selfishness as evil. Also, his antics give me a kick, and I'm partial to a bit of mischief as well.

As for what I mean by leaving a more important legacy, probably helping to make a world like that.

Yeah, I'm contemplating that issue as we speak. It seems to me that I have no desire to want to have children, so that's a big issue to overcome in my world. — Wallows

If you don't want them, don't have them. Doesn't seem like a problem to me.

My psychiatrist is supremely frustrated at my lack of concern for myself and others except for my mom. — Wallows

I think I share that a bit. I don't really care much about my own happiness, especially when the happiness of others is at stake. I've learned to go a bit easier on myself though. It's hard to be productive when you're unhappy and being productive helps others.

Essentially, I like Diogenes because he is a great example of how cynicism can be used but often goes to waste because people disregard selfishness as evil. Also, his antics give me a kick, and I'm partial to a bit of mischief as well. — TogetherTurtle

Haha. People remember you for the thing you don't do than rather do. Do you ever have that narcissistic urge to be remembered for something? I feel like the Cynics were essentially narcissists in their adoration of the good and ethics. There's a tinge of selfishness in living in society whilst disregarding everything it has to offer.

If you don't want them, don't have them. Doesn't seem like a problem to me. — TogetherTurtle

Well, we aren't machines here. There's an element of me that desires to be like everyone else and have kids, whilst disregarding the selfish urge to not be selfless.

I think I share that a bit. I don't really care much about my own happiness, especially when the happiness of others is at stake. I've learned to go a bit easier on myself though. It's hard to be productive when you're unhappy and being productive helps others. — TogetherTurtle

Yeah, I feel you here. It's apathy speaking on my part. I have to deal with it in my own terms. So be it I suppose.

What has the study yielded that's of any good use to people who have been subjected to those sorts of lifestyles growing up(or those who've yet to have been but will be one day)? — creativesoul

Filling in a questionnaire, reading a book, even joining in a thread is unlikely to have a huge benefit to a person in distress. But a better theory of mind might lead to better treatments, less stigma, all sorts of improvements. I would guess if you scored nine but have no symptoms of trauma, you are probably unusual. There is talk in the wiki, and in the book of "resilience".

stress-resistant individuals appear to be those with high sociability, a thoughtful and active coping style, and a strong perception of their ability to control their destiny. For example, when a large group of children were followed from birth until adulthood, roughly one child in ten showed an unusual capacity to withstand an adverse early environment. These children were characterized by an alert, active temperament, unusual sociability and skill in communicating with others, and a strong sense of being able to affect their own destiny, which psychologists call “internal locus of control.” Similar capacities have been found in people who show particular resistance to illness or hardiness in the face of ordinary life stresses.
During stressful events, highly resilient people are able to make use of any opportunity for purposeful action in concert with others, while ordinary people are more easily paralyzed or isolated by terror. The capacity to preserve social connection and active coping strategies, even in the face of extremity, seems to protect people to some degree against the later development of post-traumatic syndromes. For example, among survivors of a disaster at sea, the men who had managed to escape by cooperating with others showed relatively little evidence of post-traumatic stress disorder afterward. By contrast, those who had “frozen” and dissociated tended to become more symptomatic later. Highly symptomatic as well were the “Rambos,” men who had plunged into impulsive, isolated action and had not affiliated with others. — Herman

I wonder if this has any resonance with you? What has been said here about feeling loved is also important I'm sure, was there some sustaining relationship in what must have been some difficult times for you?

You are welcome to share personal details, and you are equally welcome to refrain from sharing. My own score is 0 which explains why I am such a lovely kind equable positive person. Lucky me, and lucky you to have my special attention. — unenlightened

This thread is a magnet for the troubled and would-be advisers.
Sharing and being supportive is one thing.
However, how appropriate is it - on a philosophy forum - for someone to ask and receive more personal information whilst *puffing on a cigarette*, asking about wanting to have kids and then suggesting that:

wallowing is healthy. To wallow is to appreciate — Wallows

This is just wrong.
There is just too much personal information being given out by the vulnerable.
I liken it to voyeurism.

There is just too much personal information being given out by the vulnerable.
I liken it to voyeurism. — Amity

Yes, I wasn't expecting it to go this way at all. But I don't think it has got dangerously personal. One brings one's outlook to philosophy anyway, and hopefully we are something like unruly siblings that fight and squabble but have an underlying loyalty to each other. And of course you can always call on big brother if you think anyone is getting hurt. There is another thread that was extremely confessional that I had to back away from... But feel free anyway to change the tone to something a bit more formal and theoretical.

Yes, I wasn't expecting it to go this way at all. But I don't think it has got dangerously personal. One brings one's outlook to philosophy anyway, and hopefully we are something like unruly siblings that fight and squabble but have an underlying loyalty to each other. And of course you can always call on big brother if you think anyone is getting hurt. There is another thread that was extremely confessional that I had to back away from... But feel free anyway to change the tone to something a bit more formal and theoretical. — unenlightened

Really ? After all your experience on forums and this particular 'family', you didn't expect this kind of exchange ? I find that difficult to believe.

Flagging up concerns to the admin and moderator team is a rare event.
Intriguing that whenever anything like this comes up, it is portrayed as something like betrayal of an 'underlying loyalty' by an outsider.

Regarding 'tone', informality is not the issue. Neither is there a requirement to be theoretical.

There is nothing in this thread which lies outwith forum guidelines.
However, as you say, part of philosophy is 'bringing one's outlook'. That is what I have done.
For better or worse.

I find that difficult to believe. — Amity

Perhaps I am naive and innocent. I assumed most people here would be scoring 0 or 1. The first surprise to me was that folks could not seem to imagine bringing up children without any punishment. I knew there were one or two people with 'diagnoses', but apart from them...

Anyway, I don't consider you at all an outsider, and your concerns are totally legitimate. There is a delicate line to tread on the one hand between honesty and self-indulgence, and on the other between friendly interest and voyerism, or 'therapism'. I do try to curb my enthusiasm a bit, but my interest is strong, and I think the reason for that is that although I score 0 in family relations, my school experiences were rather less than idyllic, so I have something to reconcile for myself, not just a concern for others.

Perhaps I am naive and innocent. I assumed most people here would be scoring 0 or 1. The first surprise to me was that folks could not seem to imagine bringing up children without any punishment. I knew there were one or two people with 'diagnoses', but apart from them... — unenlightened

You, naive and innocent ? Not a chance in hell.

I'll leave it there.

Do you ever have that narcissistic urge to be remembered for something? I feel like the Cynics were essentially narcissists in their adoration of the good and ethics. There's a tinge of selfishness in living in society whilst disregarding everything it has to offer. — Wallows

I suppose I do have that urge, but I also wish to earn it. I don't think I'm important at all right now. Also, I wish to do good things because they are good, not necessarily because I will be remembered. However, to me, if I'm not remembered for them they weren't good enough.

However, I would be interested in what Cynics considered to be good. I think an important and all too often ignored step of doing the right thing is actually figuring out what that would be and justifying your actions with that.

And yes, I think it is selfish to live in society while also disregarding what is has to offer. Perhaps you can be selfish towards yourself? If I do part of the work, I deserve some of the pay, but what if I don't feel that I deserve the payment I get?

Well, we aren't machines here. There's an element of me that desires to be like everyone else and have kids, whilst disregarding the selfish urge to not be selfless. — Wallows

Well, if you feel the need to be normal, not having kids is starting to get there. Regardless, I don't think anyone would blame you for not conforming in a way like that. It certainly isn't hurting anyone (unless your mother REALLY wants grandkids).

Yeah, I feel you here. It's apathy speaking on my part. I have to deal with it in my own terms. So be it I suppose. — Wallows

I have to wonder if that kind of apathy is good or bad. Recently I was asked which flooring to get in my kitchen and my only answer was "whatever you like". That doesn't cut it for a lot of people, and sometimes it even upsets them. On the other hand, it lets people get what they really want instead of having to worry about how I feel.

I would guess if you scored nine but have no symptoms of trauma, you are probably unusual. There is talk in the wiki, and in the book of "resilience". — unenlightened

The symptoms of smoking... parents smoked... grandparents smoked...

Sexual promiscuity... well, I am easy on the eyes, I suppose. Couple that with more liberal views, alcohol(sometimes), and women who like/want sex without further expectations, and...

I'm definitely unusual, if we go by what others say and/or how most others act, talk, and/or think...

The score took me off guard. I was actually laughing, like... really???

I'd rather be lucky than good.

Of course, I've done quite a bit of self-reflection. Long before this thread I realized something very important. The first three years or so of my life was in a very loving, stable, nurturing, liberal(not too much), healthy environment. Even afterwards... everyone always seemed to like me... no matter where we lived... no matter what sorts of people I found myself around... I seemed to be able to make friends and get along, to blend in(sort of)... Teachers throughout middle school always liked/loved me. None were allowed to get too close though. I was always needing to find a new best friend. Usually was a group of three of four. Even now though, not many are allowed too close(that may be a consequence?). I can walk away like the CIA... :wink:

12 schools before high school graduation...

Survival mechanisms are funny things, huh?

Well whatever gets you through the night. But that's more or less what Herman said about resilience - maintaining a social scene through difficulties, taking an active but collaborative stance... and maybe those 3 years were crucial.

However, how appropriate is it - on a philosophy forum - for someone to ask and receive more personal information whilst *puffing on a cigarette*, asking about wanting to have kids and then suggesting that:

wallowing is healthy. To wallow is to appreciate
— Wallows

This is just wrong.
There is just too much personal information being given out by the vulnerable.
I liken it to voyeurism. — Amity

I don't see what wrong is being professed by advocating some wallowing or talking about issues. Again, I liken philosophy to therapy, which you can find all the way back in Plato's allegory of the cave or in Wittgenstein's Investigations. And, about the wallowing. It's a harmless practice really.

Anyway, if you don't want to see me wallowing, then I suppose you can block my posts.

They could just ask one question, 'how happy was your childhood 0 - 10.' These questions turn out to be more predictive. But they are only trying to measure one thing, andthewse are the questions that succeed in dividing people the best statistically. Whether they are consistent or even meaningful is secondary. They might have found it statistically significant to ask if you liked squishing worms as a child. It's like when the doctor asks where it hurts, it is meaningful to him whether you point with a finger, a fist or a flat hand in terms of how localised. Litmus paper, not a ph meter.

In a bit, I want to have a look at possible therapies in the light of the general importance of childhood experience, that seems incontrovertible in all these varied problems, both mental and physical. I think it's more interesting than worrying about the questionnaire. — unenlightened

That analogy makes sense to me. Looking forward to the part about therapies. It's something I think a lot about, but I also tend to get trapped in my own thought-circles.

Edit: Oops, see that conversation already began, below the post I was responding to.

That analogy makes sense to me. Looking forward to the part about therapies. — csalisbury

Again, what' wrong with self-improvement or self-therapeutic ventures that philosophy can be? I mean, having spent some ten to fifteen years on philosophy forums, I've noticed a tendency towards topics like "let's save the Earth" to my personal favorites of "addressing depression". I don't find any use to tell a person to 'go study psychology' or 'seek professional help', which are disingenuous to the issue that an individual may experience.

Although to be fair, I've noticed also a tendency towards treating these issues in a non-controlled manner that encourages confirmation bias and derealization of the issue that an individual may experience. Such, as delving a little too deeply into Schopenhauer or Nietzsche to the extremes of Cioran.

Just my two pennies.

Again, what' wrong with self-improvement or self-therapeutic ventures that philosophy can be? — Wallows

I don't think anything's wrong with that ( in moderation, balanced by other things.)

The first principle of recovery is the empowerment of the survivor. She must be the author and arbiter of her own recovery. Others may offer advice, support, assistance, affection, and care, but not cure. Many benevolent and well-intentioned attempts to
assist the survivor founder because this fundamental principle of empowerment is not
observed. No intervention that takes power away from the survivor can possibly foster
her recovery, no matter how much it appears to be in her immediate best interest. In the
words of an incest survivor, “Good therapists were those who really validated my
experience and helped me to control my behavior rather than trying to control me.” — Judeth Herman

This sounds right to me.

The tricky part is validation & it's so tricky it gets me frustrated if I think about it too long.

One of the nastier side effects of trauma is it warps how you see the world, and interact with it and the people in it. And that can play out in all sorts of ways. There are protective ways of interpreting the intentions of others that, while understandable in the wake of abuse, can end up, long-term, being detrimental. The emotional experience must always be validated, but validating narratives can sometimes perpetuate a self-sealing self-abuse. Only sometimes narratives that seem skewed are actually real (Freud, "hysterics") and not validating thosedeeply reinforces feelings of isolation and abandonment.

In stark terms, victims of trauma often (consciously or unconsciously, implicitly or explicitly) solicit affirmations of the reworked world they live in, for sheer survival. They are very attuned to signs of disbelief and suspicion, while also looking for ways out of the psychological hell they're in, which ways out would involve someone who can see the way in which they're distorting the world. Only it's hard to know, for an outsider, what's real and what isn't, because if your patient is living in a distorted world, they're probably meeting other people with equal distortions, leading to horrible things that people outside that world wouldn't necessarily understand, and sometimes the very fact of distortion can be self-fulfilling, creating the world it sees, and it's such a mess.

(I guess I'm talking third or at least second stage in terms of the therapy outlined in the link. Obviously, in the first stage, validation and safety is more important than anything else. Mourning and reintegration seem like they require a starker confrontation)