ZhouBoTong — ZhouBoTong

I go by whatever a poster says and answer by my impression of if he is a believer or not. I sometimes miss the mark, like here apparently. Apologies.

At least you have learned how I deal with the scapegoat riders.

I hope any of those lurking around answer as you did but they tend not to, if they reply at all. Most run for the hills and refuse to be honest.

Regards
DL

Notice that Jesus never actually committed sin — ZhouBoTong

That is not what I read, especially if I follow the stupid Trinity concept. Yahweh/Jesus sins quite a bit.
Even if I do not tie Jesus to Yahweh, I still see Jesus as sinning on occasion.

His fit against the merchants at the temple is just one example.

Regards
DL

I go by whatever a poster says and answer by my impression of if he is a believer or not. I sometimes miss the mark, like here apparently. Apologies. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

No problem. No non-believer should ever have to learn all that crap, so it was probably a fair assumption :smile:

That is not what I read, especially if I follow the stupid Trinity concept. Yahweh/Jesus sins quite a bit.
Even if I do not tie Jesus to Yahweh, I still see Jesus as sinning on occasion.

His fit against the merchants at the temple is just one example. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Know that I am likely to agree with most examples you give that show the wackiness of Christianity. Having dealt with A LOT of apologetics though, I could guess one possible answer (and of course there is favorite standby of "god works in mysterious ways", ugh). It would be the same answer as why the old testament god was not sinning when he was accepting sacrifices and wiping out populations. He was meeting humans where they are. That is supposedly a justification for the 10 commandments also(DO IT OR ELSE does not seem very christian). The pharisees would not have responded if Jesus just kindly asked them to stop (not sure how that justifies actions that would otherwise be sin?).

Apologetics are a bunch of nonsense, but some churches have put a tremendous amount of effort into TRYING to make them seem logical. They fail, but it is an impressive attempt considering the nonsensical nature of the subject :grin:

Are you happy to know you will die? — Gnostic Christian Bishop

No more than I am happy that the ground I'm standing on is made of stone. Neither is in my control; I simply accept them, as I must. What other option(s) do we have? To deny reality because we'd rather it was otherwise? No, that's not for me.

ZhouBoTong — ZhouBoTong

Nice that we both see the harm and foolishness within the religions that have used inquisitions and jihads against the innocent.

Regards
DL

No, that's not for me. — Pattern-chaser

True, but it is not true for those foolish enough to believe in the supernatural.

Regards
DL

No, that's not for me. — Pattern-chaser


True, but it is not true for those foolish enough to believe in the supernatural. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Hmm. And yet *I* am that foolish.... :wink:

I'm an atheist.

I'd rather be immortal, as long as I could be relatively young/healthy as an immortal.

Pattern-chaser
933

No, that's not for me. — Pattern-chaser


True, but it is not true for those foolish enough to believe in the supernatural. — Gnostic Christian Bishop


Hmm. And yet *I* am that foolish.... :wink: — Pattern-chaser

What does your response mean, PC?

Are you saying you "believe" in the "supernatural?"

If so...are you saying that you are inferring knowledge...or is it just a general feeling or guess...that something other than what is a part of nature...exists?

Terrapin Station
8.4k
I'm an atheist.

I'd rather be immortal, as long as I could be relatively young/healthy as an immortal. — Terrapin Station

What do you mean when you say you are an "atheist," Terrapin?

Are you expressing a "belief" or guess that there are no gods...or are you simply saying you lack a "belief" that any gods exist?

If the latter, to you also lack a "belief" that no gods exist? Are you generally lacking a belief in whether gods exist or do not exist?

What does your response mean, PC?

Are you saying you "believe" in the "supernatural?"

If so...are you saying that you are inferring knowledge...or is it just a general feeling or guess...that something other than what is a part of nature...exists? — Frank Apisa

I'm saying that I'm a believer (but not a Christian ;)). And before that, I was claiming not to deny or believe-against the evidence. OK? :smile: A guess? In formal terms, yes, that's exactly what it is. :wink:

Pattern-chaser
934

What does your response mean, PC?

Are you saying you "believe" in the "supernatural?"

If so...are you saying that you are inferring knowledge...or is it just a general feeling or guess...that something other than what is a part of nature...exists? — Frank Apisa


I'm saying that I'm a believer (but not a Christian ;)). And before that, I was claiming not to deny or believe-against the evidence. OK? :smile: A guess? In formal terms, yes, that's exactly what it is. :wink: — Pattern-chaser

Okay...just wasn't sure of your point.

I went from moderate religious...to zealous religious...to agnostic. Moderate up to age 17 - 18...zealous while in military service (peacetime)...and became agnostic about at age 21 - 25. Been that way ever since.

I went from moderate religious...to zealous religious...to agnostic. Moderate up to age 17 - 18...zealous while in military service (peacetime)...and became agnostic about at age 21 - 25. Been that way ever since. — Frank Apisa

And I went from forcibly religious - I was raised Roman Catholic - until I was able to choose for myself. Thereafter I was (unthinkingly) atheist, then, gradually, agnostic. And now I am a Gaian Daoist. Gaia, the Nature aspect of God, and Taoism for the spiritual/philosophical side.

It takes all sorts! :wink:

What do you mean when you say you are an "atheist," Terrapin?

Are you expressing a "belief" or guess that there are no gods...or are you simply saying you lack a "belief" that any gods exist?

If the latter, to you also lack a "belief" that no gods exist? Are you generally lacking a belief in whether gods exist or do not exist? — Frank Apisa

I believe/I'm asserting the fact that no gods exist.

A bunch of that stuff you just made up in your head, or it's from a version of Christianity I've never seen, but it's not in the bible.

Why do you have Christian in your nickname if you know little to nothing about the religion, is it supposed to be ironic?

Terrapin Station
8.4k

What do you mean when you say you are an "atheist," Terrapin?

Are you expressing a "belief" or guess that there are no gods...or are you simply saying you lack a "belief" that any gods exist?

If the latter, to you also lack a "belief" that no gods exist? Are you generally lacking a belief in whether gods exist or do not exist? — Frank Apisa


I believe/I'm asserting the fact that no gods exist. — Terrapin Station

Okay...so you are a "believer."

It may be a correct guess. If I were to "hope" on the matter (I seldom do)...it is what I hope is the truth.

Okay...so you are a "believer."

It may be a correct guess. If I were to "hope" on the matter (I seldom do)...it is what I hope is the truth. — Frank Apisa

No maybe or hoping about it, but who knows the reason you have some doubts. You don't really seem to be sharing the source of your doubts.

Terrapin Station
8.4k

Okay...so you are a "believer."

It may be a correct guess. If I were to "hope" on the matter (I seldom do)...it is what I hope is the truth. — Frank Apisa




No maybe or hoping about it, but who knows the reason you have some doubts. You don't really seem to be sharing the source of your doubts. — Terrapin Station

Not sure what you mean that I am not sharing the source of my doubts. I have offered them several times...in several different places and threads.

I have absolutely no idea of the true nature of the REALITY of existence. Neither do you.

You can make a blind guess about its nature...about what is contained in it...and what does not exist...but it is nothing but a blind guess.

I choose not to do that...although I will if asked.

What on Earth is unreasonable about:

I do not know if gods exist or not;
I see no reason to suspect gods CANNOT EXIST...that the existence of gods is impossible;
I see no reason to suspect that gods MUST EXIST...that gods are needed to explain existence;
I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess in either direction...

...so I don't.

Why do you have Christian in your nickname if you know little to nothing about the religion, is it supposed to be ironic? — whollyrolling

Just to see who the less educated are.

I am happy to teach you anything you misunderstand about both Christianity, and it's more intelligent form of Gnostic Christianity.

Ask nice.

Regards
DL

Terrapin Station
8.4k

What do you mean when you say you are an "atheist," Terrapin?

Are you expressing a "belief" or guess that there are no gods...or are you simply saying you lack a "belief" that any gods exist?

If the latter, to you also lack a "belief" that no gods exist? Are you generally lacking a belief in whether gods exist or do not exist? — Frank Apisa


I believe/I'm asserting the fact that no gods exist. — Terrapin Station
Okay...so you are a "believer."

It may be a correct guess. If I were to "hope" on the matter (I seldom do)...it is what I hope is the truth. — Frank Apisa

A fool says in his heart, there is no God; -- a wise man says it out laud.

Regards
DL

Gnostic Christian Bishop
147

Terrapin Station
8.4k

A fool says in his heart, there is no God; -- a wise man says it out laud.

Regards
DL — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Perhaps significant that you spelled "out loud" incorrectly.

Guessing there are no gods is not foolish...but then again, guessing there is at least one god is not foolish either.

They are simply guesses.

If someone wants to pretend either is more than just a guess...

...that person is being foolish.

Perhaps significant that you spelled "out loud" incorrectly. — Frank Apisa

I am French buddy and I can screw up in 3 languages.Only those who seek cheap points remark on such minute errors.

If a fool want to think there is a god by faith alone, then he has faith without facts and is truly a fool.

The wise go with reality and not some imaginary god, who just happens to be a genocidal son murdering prick of a god.

If fools are going to make up a god, can you tell us why they choose to create such a vile prick of a god?

Regards
DL

I have absolutely no idea of the true nature of the REALITY of existence. Neither do you. — Frank Apisa

Are you talking about our mental content here, re dispositions, etc.?

Gnostic Christian Bishop
148

Perhaps significant that you spelled "out loud" incorrectly. — Frank Apisa


I am French buddy and I can screw up in 3 languages.Only those who seek cheap points remark on such minute errors. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Hey...you screwed up. No big deal. I just thought it was funny, because I disagreed with the sentiment you were attempting to convey.

If a fool want to think there is a god by faith alone, then he has faith without facts and is truly a fool. — Gnostic

If a person wants to guess there is a god...or to guess there are no gods...he/she is not a fool. One does not become a fool because one makes a guess.

That, essentially is what a "belief" in this context is...a guess.

The wise go with reality and not some imaginary god, who just happens to be a genocidal son murdering prick of a god. — Gnostic

Is that what you think...that you are...wise?

Okay...I enjoy a laugh.

If fools are going to make up a god, can you tell us why they choose to create such a vile prick of a god? — Gnostic

Beats me.

A better question is: Since it seems humans invented gods like Zeus, Ra, Jehovah and that crappy like...why is that used by the fools of the world to suppose no gods exist...rather than that humans are fallible when it comes to describing some things?

Terrapin Station
8.4k

I have absolutely no idea of the true nature of the REALITY of existence. Neither do you. — Frank Apisa


Are you talking about our mental content here, re dispositions, etc.? — Terrapin Station

I am saying that I (I am just talking about me at this point) do not know the true nature of the REALITY of existence. I do not know what actually exists (or existed)...or what does not exist (or has not existed) in the REALITY of existence. It is big mystery to me...and I am not disposed to make guesses about most of it.

It is my blind guess that you do not know that either.

I should have included that qualification.

My bad. I apologize.

Beats me.

A better question is: Since it seems humans invented gods like Zeus, Ra, Jehovah and that crappy like...why is that used by the fools of the world to suppose no gods exist...rather than that humans are fallible when it comes to describing some things? — Frank Apisa

So if the religions are that far off the mark, it shows who the fools are.

Those who have the faith of fools have to hide behind a supernatural shield.

Faith closes the mind. It is pure idol worship.

Faith is a way to quit using, "God given" power of Reason and Logic, and cause the faithful to embrace doctrines that moral people reject.

The God of the OT says, “Come now, and let us reason together,” [Isaiah 1:18]

How can literalists reason on God when they must ignore reason and logic and discard them when turning into literalist?

Those who are literalists can only reply somewhat in the fashion that Martin Luther did.
“Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.”
“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.”

This attitude effectively kills all worthy communication that non-theists can have with theist. Faith closes their mind as it is pure idol worship.

Literalism is an evil practice that hides the true messages of myths. We cannot show our faith based friends that they are wrong through their faith colored glasses. Their faith also plugs their ears.

Regards
DL

Gnostic Christian Bishop
149

Beats me.

A better question is: Since it seems humans invented gods like Zeus, Ra, Jehovah and that crappy like...why is that used by the fools of the world to suppose no gods exist...rather than that humans are fallible when it comes to describing some things? — Frank Apisa


So if the religions are that far off the mark, it shows who the fools are.

Those who have the faith of fools have to hide behind a supernatural shield.

Faith closes the mind. It is pure idol worship.

Faith is a way to quit using, "God given" power of Reason and Logic, and cause the faithful to embrace doctrines that moral people reject.

The God of the OT says, “Come now, and let us reason together,” [Isaiah 1:18]

How can literalists reason on God when they must ignore reason and logic and discard them when turning into literalist?

Those who are literalists can only reply somewhat in the fashion that Martin Luther did.
“Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.”
“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.”

This attitude effectively kills all worthy communication that non-theists can have with theist. Faith closes their mind as it is pure idol worship.

Literalism is an evil practice that hides the true messages of myths. We cannot show our faith based friends that they are wrong through their faith colored glasses. Their faith also plugs their ears.

Regards
DL — Gnostic Christian Bishop

The "fools" in my opinion...are those who insist, "There is at least one god"...

...who insist, "There are no gods"...

...or who insist they know which of those two is more likely.

They are the fools...in my opinion.

I recognize that decent, well-intentioned, intelligent people can disagree with me.

I suspect they are fools also.

Literalist readers of myths are fools.

Regards
DL

Gnostic Christian Bishop
150
Literalist readers of myths are fools. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

People unwilling to acknowledge they do not know if gods exist or not...or unwilling to acknowledge they cannot determine which is more likely...

...ARE FOOLS.

Hi, I can make a case for God and life after death on this Holy Saturday.

*End of the Line of Explanation*

The question you need to consider is whether everything has an explanation, or only the things we choose to say are explained. If we can choose what has an explanation and what does not, all science becomes subjective. This also means that things can act before they become operational - a contradiction in terms. (see my #36). Peace, Dennis

Energy is conserved because the dynamics of the universe does not change over time (Noether's theorem tells us this). Science does not tell us why the dynamics does not change -- why the laws remain in operation -- that is the job of metaphysics and it leads us to the conclusion, not that "God did it" (which assumes that God exists), but that "God does exist" -- which is something we would not know if we did not investigate the question. So, try not to confuse the two statements -- they are very different.

No. I have made no hypothesis. There must be an explanation, or science will not work. The explanation cannot be an infinite regress. So the series of explanations comes to an end. The end of the line cannot be explained by anything but itself or it would not be the end of the line. Yet, our general principle says it has an explanation. So, it must be self-explaining. None of these are guesses, so there is no hypothesis and no god of gaps. Tear that page out of your copy of the Atheist's Playbook, it does not apply here.

If you want to say that the laws of nature are self explaining, then you are saying God controls the universe directly instead of via laws. Any self explaining being has to be infinite and so God. (Se the Appendix in my book). In my view, science works better if we do not assume that God is the proximate reason why things happen -- that is just saying "God does it" -- which I thought you did not like.

The principle is that everything has an explanation. God is included in everything. The problem you are having is assuming that everything is explained by something beyond itself. That is not implied by the principle. Since God is the end of the line of explanation, God is not explained by something else, but is self-explaining. There is no logical problem.

Things having explanations does not mean we know the explanations. Yet, we can know that a series of concurrent explanations (the laws act concurrently - #13) cannot be infinitely long, so there has to be a first term. To be first, it must be self-explaining (#15). To be self-explaining, a being's essence (what it can do - #35) must explain or entail its existence. Existence is simply the ability to act, so its essence can't cut down the power to act & is unlimited. Peace, Dennis

@Dfpolis A contributor here.