Its astonishing! The resistance you get for asking simple qualifying questions. I guess I get it, answering pesky questions like “what are you talking about” interfere with the feel good mental masterbation and whats a circle jerk without masterbation... — DingoJones
Well to be honest Im not really behind either side of that debate. Ive been following along, I just don’t think of morality in either terms. That having been said, the mental gymnastics and emotional attachments to “objective” morality you guys are dealing with is pretty painful. You guys are not even able to get a proper understanding of your positions through that stubborn wall, let alone actually debate the sides. — DingoJones
Thank you very much for contributions, which add some needed context for this subject. And it helps to address the question of whether spirit can be even said “to exist” or have some dimension of reality.The point of such 'laws of thought' is that our thinking is dependent on them, as without them, we couldn't use abstract logic or language. And I say that such intelligible objects of a different order to the domain of phenomenal existents (things that exist). So when we assert the identity of particulars, or say that 'this is that' or 'this means that', this depends on the capacity to abstract and compare using just this inherent faculty of reasoned inference.
This general approach is broadly speaking Platonist. Plato realised that abstract principles (numbers and geometrical forms) possess a kind of reality that is of a different order to the sensory or empirical. One point about such ideas is that they are immediately perceptible to the mind (nous) in a way that is not possible for material objects; when we know a rational truth, then that kind of knowing is of a different order to the knowledge of sensible particulars as we know it immediately, not mediated by sense.
Now, in the grand tradition of Western philosophy, what philosophers mean by 'spirit' is real in the sense that such intelligible and rational truths are real. Whereas in current culture, we tend to think in terms of 'what exists', in terms of the phenomenal domain. So if you assert the reality of 'spirit', the question will arise, 'where could such a being exist ? What kind of phenomena is it?' To which traditionalist philosophy might answer, well it doesn't exist, but it's nevertheless real; that it transcends the empirical domain, in a way analogous to how mathematical order transcends the domain of symbolic forms. — Wayfarer
In researching for this thread, I looked into Hegel’s The Phenomenology of Spirit — 0 thru 9
God is commonly described as a being who is omniscient, omnipotent, and so forth. Hegel says this is already a mistake. If God is to be truly infinite, truly unlimited, then God cannot be ‘a being’, because ‘a being’, that is, one being (however powerful) among others, is already limited by its relations to the others. It’s limited by not being X, not being Y, and so forth. But then it’s clearly not unlimited, not infinite! To think of God as ‘a being’ is to render God finite.
Interesting that the word in the title geist in German also can be translated “mind”. — 0 thru 9
Do any such relevant ideas from the Eastern traditions concerning spirit come to mind? — 0 thru 9
noun
▸ your attitude to life or to other people
▸ the attitude of people in a group
▸ your mood, or your attitude
▸ an enthusiastic or determined attitude
▸ the general or real meaning of something
▸ the part of a person that many people believe continues to exist after death
▸ a dead person who comes back into the world
▸ an imaginary creature with special powers
▸ a strong alcoholic drink such as whiskey or brandy
▸ alcohol used as a fuel or used by doctors for making things very clean
▸ a fundamental emotional and activating principle determining one's character
▸ any incorporeal supernatural being that can become visible (or audible) to human beings
▸ the vital principle or animating force within living things
▸ the general atmosphere of a place or situation and the effect that it has on people
▸ an inclination or tendency of a certain kind
▸ the state of a person's emotions (especially with regard to pleasure or dejection) ("He was in good spirits")
▸ animation and energy in action or expression
▸ the intended meaning of a communication
verb
▸to take someone or something away suddenly but without being noticed
▸infuse with spirit ("The company spirited him up") — Various online dictionaries
Interesting. I associate (perhaps vaguely) one’s spirit with behavior, choices, and will. Am hesitant to dive too much into the concept of “evil” here. However, one can theorize that a central and non-physical part of one’s being (let’s call it spirit) can be somewhere on the spectrum between weak or strong, constructive or destructive, wise or foolish, etc. Is this generally what you were referring to by “operative influences” perhaps?"Spirit" can also be an integral basic foundational element of a larger worldview. The notion, idea, and/or conception referred to by using the term "spirit" can be an operative and quite influential interconnected set of different thought/belief. That which is real has an affect/effect. The notion of(one's thought/belief involving and/or about) "spirit" exists as numerous different conceptions thereof. Those conceptions can be operative influences regarding deliberately chosen behaviour. Thus it is very real. — creativesoul
Good point, thanks. The mind itself is invisible and non-material. The brain is matter. The mind is... ? Energy? Plasma? A function? An experience? None of the above? I’m not completely sure or comfortable with any those answers. The mind can be a name we give to certain phenomena. Perhaps, the same goes for the concept of spirit.Likewise, I think a given experience could be interpreted as an interaction between the spiritual and the material, as evidence of a world beyond the material, or as a coincidence, or as a delusion, or as a phenomenon that might eventually be explained within the material world. Then people interpret it in whatever way makes them most comfortable. — leo
Yes. It seems that we, that life, has some type of organizing process and principle. Some group of tropisms that give some orientation and structure, like a plant growing up towards light and down towards water. I think that there is some actual phenomena present which call be called the life force or psyche or essence or spirit. But, as you mentioned, delusions are definitely possible, as in probably any area one can imagine. Delusions, errors, assumptions, assertions, etc. All part of some experiencing and learning process maybe. But I would propose (as you might agree) that simply because one can have delusions about the spiritual aspect doesn’t necessarily mean that spirit itself is a delusion. Thoughts?Clearly we are not just inert matter, we have feelings we have desires we have sometimes spiritual experiences, if all we are is matter then that matter has the amazing property to give rise to such experiences, and it's quite possible that the matter we see with our eyes, the body, is a tiny part of what we are. It's possible that all our experiences cannot be reduced to electrons moving through the brain. That a lot goes on in the spiritual world and the eyes can see nothing of it. But it's also possible that this spiritual world is a delusion, something we want to believe to feel better, and that once comes the time to leave our material body we will just die with it. Some say that after we die our spirit keeps on living in the people we loved, but some will interpret it as these people having a memory of us and reacting in a way similar to how we reacted through behavioral imitation. How could we know for sure? — leo
I think that spirit is a sense of belonging. It is that wondrous and inspiring sense of there being a connection to energy and consciousness, to something outside of yourself, yet paradoxically and profoundly deep within. It is what makes you, you. It is like a flower under the sun, ever growing upwards, reaching out. It fills you with awe and appreciation — S
Hmmm. Some worthy points there. Thanks for your reply. However, it must be said that I’m not in complete agreement with your post as a whole. I do believe it to be beneficial to have a healthy skepticism about nearly everything. A kind of scientific or philosophical openness to new information and theories. If for no other reason than that things are constantly in motion and changing. And it is important (I think) to remember that alot of this kind of thing is “labeling”. Similar to taking an “educated guess”, there can be a “theoretical/creative labeling”. Or as @Wayfarer put it a “heuristic” approach, ie. experimental or trial-and-error. I am not sure that accuracy is the only metric in play here, as important as it is. Usefulness and cohesiveness of theory might be other ways to measure such ideas.I understand that you want to avoid straying from the specific notion of "spirit", but it's important to consider that it falls into a category with numerous other fantasies and delusions in that all of it is unknown, based on emotions such as fear and anxiety, assigned characteristics cherry-picked from natural occurrences, based on concepts and principles subscribed to by primitive humans who thought that the brain was in the chest where we now know the heart is.
There's never been any reason, outside of heightened emotion, to assert that anything invisible or intangible can be described with elaborate detail.
There's nothing wrong with assertion, and I don't see a problem with the assertion that something has never been demonstrated. If you want to argue the existence of something, it might be best to begin with some evidence of a replicable qualitative occurrence of it in reality. Otherwise we're talking about nothing as though it's something.
It's important to consider all fairy tales, not just one specifically, because they're all derived from similar heightened emotions and states of mind, such as fear of predators, fear of death itself, or fear of not having lived fully, etc. — whollyrolling
"Spirit" can also be an integral basic foundational element of a larger worldview. The notion, idea, and/or conception referred to by using the term "spirit" can be an operative and quite influential interconnected set of different thought/belief. That which is real has an affect/effect. The notion of(one's thought/belief involving and/or about) "spirit" exists as numerous different conceptions thereof. Those conceptions can be operative influences regarding deliberately chosen behaviour. Thus it is very real. — creativesoul
:smirk: Alright... you had me going for a moment. Though I wondered if perhaps you’d bumped your head or saw the Ghost of Christmas Future last night. April Fools continues!I think that spirit is a sense of belonging. It is that wondrous and inspiring sense of there being a connection to energy and consciousness, to something outside of yourself, yet paradoxically and profoundly deep within. It is what makes you, you. It is like a flower under the sun, ever growing upwards, reaching out. It fills you with awe and appreciation, and I'm making this up as I go along, and only talking such poetic drivel to prove a point. — S
From your "eyes" analogy--what is the analogous physical object in the discussion of "spirit"? — whollyrolling
:ok: Thanks. Can’t disagree with that. Although I would quibble only slightly with the words “only source of information”. A large source certainly, but maybe even that is a secondary source, as useful and thoroughly described as it may be. Because in a way, isn’t that somewhat putting the cart before the horse? Doesn’t the experience come before the writing? Since “spirit” (in its manifold terms and interpretations) seems to be such a widespread experience, belief, or phenomena that it may an archetypal image present our collective unconscious, if you give any credence to Carl Jung’s approach. (Although of course some do not).Body (organic mass-energy) has spatiotemporal extension. Mind has temporal, but not spatial, extension. Mind consists of organism events (conditions, actions, and processes) which produce automatic and controlled acts.
As far as I know, the writings of the World's major book religions and systems of moral philosophy are the only source of information about "spirit", or similar concepts.
From such criteria, evidence in terms of observed behaviour may be sufficient to posit "spirit", or similar concepts. It is a philosophical, not empirical, question. So, questions of fact and nature (including the supernatural) are irrelevant.
I could (but would not, due to its controversial nature) incorporate a notion of spirit within a model of cognitive psychology as follows:
1) Like mind, spirit has temporal, but not spatial, extension.
2) It is a moral condition-action feedback loop.
3) Body, mind, and spirit have correlative, but not causal, relations.
4) Soul is mind.
5) Animals possess a soul, but not a spirit. — Galuchat
Again, a rope and a snake are each something. Somewhere in the analogy there needs to be a nothing that is treated as if it was a something. — whollyrolling
Fair enough! Thanks for your reply. :smile:Dear professor, while my school hours are booked with compare and contrast papers, between Algebra and Crisis management, I am going to take a moment to address your pondering.
Yes, I absolutely believe that most humans have "spirit" and I don't mean Rah rah rah :party: I mean an essence of the person. It is the part of the person, that together with another's spirit can create a new combined energy or synergy for the ultra fortunate. Animals are no different in that most have spirits as well.
I use the word "most" as a prequalifier as there are always exceptions to any theory but that does not change my mind about whether or not a spirit exists.
Is there a difference between a spirit and a soul?
On first blush I would say they are almost one in the same but I don't feel comfortable making that differential just yet. — ArguingWAristotleTiff
Alright. What is it that we're saying exists, then? Let's define terms. It's obviously not Santa Claus we're discussing. So then, what is it? — whollyrolling
Maybe what people call spirit is a particular function of the mind. Not imaginary, just specific. Like memories or the unconscious. I am not necessarily or particularly saying anything certain and definite about spirit. This is something that should be made clear. Some have commented that the OP lacked a definition of spirit. That was more or less intentional. Nothing has been completely defined, let alone proven, or is really expected to be so. It is at least (for me at this point) a concept. A concept that may potentially be useful or helpful. — 0 thru 9
Doesn’t the experience come before the writing? — 0 thru 9
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