Is this all some neuroticism or "self-actualization"? — Wallows

The former.

Can you try and please explain the psychology behind this whole process? It's like these people are actually hurting by being themselves, and hate their self-image or something of that sort. How do you explain the psychology of a Bob?

How do you explain the psychology of a Bob? — Wallows

You mean of a bodybuilder?

You mean of a bodybuilder? — Baden

Yeah, well, why doesn't Bob want to be a bodybuilder? Doesn't every male fantasize about being big and strong and look like Arnold Schwarzenegger?

I’m not

I’m not — Michael

Not what?

Doesn't every male fantasize about being big and strong and look like Arnold Schwarzenegger? — Wallows

No. That's where the neuroticism comes in. Most males will never be able to have a body like Arnold no matter how much drugs they pump themselves with. So, desire x continued frustration of desire = neuroticism. Until they get some sense and concentrate on stuff they can actually achieve.

As the great sage (or was he merely a smartarse?) Ashleigh Brilliant once said " My biggest problem is what to do about all the things I can't do anything about".

Possibly, but let me ask do you plan to compete?

If you're just being a casual bodybuilder you would be helping yourself by spending less on Testosterone and other things harmful to your kidney and liver and just use test boosters, supplements, and seasonal diet.

It's an interesting question. I take it you're asking whether the sport of bodybuilding is in some way intrinsically pathological, rather than whether bodybuilders typically suffer from some kind of psychopathology.

The desire to have a 'perfect body' (or, what amounts to almost the same thing: the desire to win competitions where a 'superior body' is the criterion of success) seems to be a paradigmatic case of vanity. Vanity itself isn't pathological. But dedicating a large portion of one's life and energy to attaining such a body may be, depending on the individual - their values, commitments and psychology.

It is possible to love the pursuit and have very little inner conflict about it. I wouldn't consider people in these types of cases to be neurotic because of their bodybuilding.

Personal story: Years ago I got into it causally. I enjoyed lifting weights and autistic eating schedules (I don't mean autistic in the technical sense). I eventually did steroids and the experience was positive in many ways. But for various reasons, that life wasn't for me. My body, and my soul, were not well shaped for that path, and the friction proved too much. The way it interfered with the rest of my life and functionality was too much. So, in my case, though I didn't reach an advanced stage, the bodybuilding pursuit was pathological.

I quite like the idea of doing it properly, ie with no drugs, and reading up of body building nutritional needs....I think some people buy those huge tubs of whey protein and somehow think by eating that that they will put on muscle bulk....I wonder if they know how much protein in grams that they really need, in order to build up muscle within a certain body building regime.

I've let myself go to much to really get into it now, but I sort of wish I had gone down that road in the past just to see where it might have lead.

But how is it vain to compete? There are plenty of bodybuilders who do the sport because they love to get in and out of shape for competitions.

As a once competitive sportsman, there is something very odd about bodybuilding since it appears to do away with any athleticism. To be honest, I question their motivations. To an outsider it appears to be a symptom of a body dysmorphic disorder. I find it hard to appreciate in the same way way that I find the results of anorexia nervosa or the human Barbie and Ken appealing.

I'm very into fitness, including that I bodybuild. I don't take any steroids.

Bodybuilding doesn't imply that you do it competitively or even that you're trying to get unusually large. It also doesn't imply that you do not do other athletic things. At the gym I do calisthenics just as much as weight training. Outside of the gym, I also spend a lot of time biking, hiking, doing martial arts, playing tennis and racquetball, etc.

"Are bodybuilders poor neurotic men?"

Are there no women into bodybuilding? :joke:

Seriously, though, if you want to get into strength-training, as opposed to bodybuilding, why not? It doesn't have to be about how you look, but rather about becoming the best you can be strengthwise (without the drugs of course!).

This will not just make you stronger (and better looking, though you don't care about that unless you are neurotic :joke: ) but will improve your general physical health and well-being. It will also, as a positive side-effect, improve your mental and emotional well-being.

So, if you have the discipline to pursue it and are not motivated primarily by vanity, then you need have no fear of becoming neurotic on account of pursuing strength-training.

You're right. I went for the most obvious diagnosis of the bodybuilder's impulse. But it is true that one can be interested in this type of competition/pursuit out of a certain fascination with aspects of the process rather than neurotic concern with looking a certain way. (E.g., self-mastery, control over the body, etc.)

rather than neurotic concern with looking a certain way. (E.g., self-mastery, control over the body, etc.) — Welkin Rogue

Maybe it is neurotic to be (overly, at least) concerned with how you look, but there is nothing intrinsically neurotic about pursuing self-mastery or control over the body.

You mean there's nothing intrinsically neurotic about looking a certain way? I agree: there isn't. That's why I used the qualifier 'neurotic'.

You mean there's nothing intrinsically neurotic about looking a certain way? — Welkin Rogue

No I'm saying there is nothing intrinsically neurotic about being concerned with looking a certain way; or to put it another way concern with looking a certain way is not necessarily neurotic concern, but your initial statement is ambiguous, and so perhaps you were not meaning to say anything to the contrary.

Yeah my mistake there should have been the words 'concern with' in there.

:cool:

Now I wonder how we should characterize neurotic as opposed to non-neurotic concern with looking a certain way, and how the notion of vanity fits in.

My first thought is this: vanity is concern with how one looks. Neurotic and non-neurotic vanity are distinguished in the following way: If in circumstances where S would fail to approximate looking a certain way, S would feel deeply inadequate, then S is neurotically vain.

If that's right, it's not clear most bodybuilders are neurotically vain. And it seems pretty certain that they aren't necessarily neurotically vain.

My first thought is this: vanity is concern with how one looks. Neurotic and non-neurotic vanity are distinguished in the following way: If in circumstances where S would fail to approximate looking a certain way, S would feel deeply inadequate, then S is neurotically vain. — Welkin Rogue

I wouldn't say that no bodybuilders feel that way, but I think it's relatively rare.

For most, even those who do it competitively/fairly obsessively, I think it's far more akin to any other skill or development that someone pursues, which can include things like learning to play a musical instrument, taking up sailing, learning philosophy, etc. People try to keep progressing at those things, try to increase their mastery of it, etc. This is expressed pretty literally in bodybuilding as being concerned with "gains." It's just that in bodybuilding, what you're developing is your physique. Bodybuilding, done with any degree of seriousness--basically so that it would be noticeable to others, is something that requires a lot of knowledge and dedication, even moreso than many of those other things, because it really requires a major lifestyle change.

Where it typically starts to become neurotic is when you start doing things that can potentially harm you just to make (apparent) gains. Steroids are one example. Synthol is a far more extreme example, especially since synthol doesn't even produce something that looks like bodybuilding gains. Synthol is more assuredly an indication of body dysmorphia.

To follow on from your thoughts... I think you are probably right that bodybuilding is just like another other project in that its core appeal and source of meaning for people is simply development of a skill or progress towards a goal.

In my experience, the public do not have this impression. The accusation I'd anticipate to your claim is: "you could choose anything to pour yourself into, why choose something that is so obsessed with your own body?" As you acknowledge, for some it may be true that the core appeal is something to do with vanity (neurotic or not). But for others, it is possible to imagine someone getting into it almost by accident - they try the gym like regular people, for instance, and find that they really enjoy it, or that their body responds very well to it, in that they grow easily. It is rewarding, and so they get deeper into it.

There are many reasons people might be disproportionately critical of bodybuilders qua hobbyists or sportspeople. One is that it's not taken seriously as a pursuit in the same way as other projects of this kind (tennis, train modelling, poker, track athletics), and so the substantial dedication it requires is seen not as a virtue in aid of a worthy goal, but as mere self-obsession. Why? Perhaps because the aim is transformation of one's own body, which is usually a means to some other end. The object of dedication is literally oneself in a way that it isn't in most other pursuits. But it's far from obvious that this constitutes a different and objectionable type of 'self-obsession', at least when it comes to solo-sports and pursuits. The results may be enjoyable to others just as they are in these other solo pursuits.

A lot of people get into as a means of improving or maintaining their health. Both calisthenics and resistance (weight) training are very important healthwise. The early stages of bodybuilding are an upshot of this.

Of course, it doesn't hurt that getting healthier can help one in the attractiveness department, too.

If in circumstances where S would fail to approximate looking a certain way, S would feel deeply inadequate, then S is neurotically vain. — Welkin Rogue

I didn't know @S was neurotic in that way. Let's ask him.

Is this all some neuroticism or "self-actualization"? — Wallows

It follows that an insightful fellow like Wallows will allow that homo sapiens are regular hot houses of neuroticism. Wikipedia provides this handy definition:

Neuroticism is one of the Big Five higher-order personality traits in the study of psychology. Individuals who score high on neuroticism are more likely than average to be moody and to experience such feelings as anxiety, worry, fear, anger, frustration, envy, jealousy, guilt, depressed mood, and loneliness. People who are neurotic respond worse to stressors and are more likely to interpret ordinary situations as threatening and minor frustrations as hopelessly difficult. They are often self-conscious and shy, and they may have trouble controlling urges and delaying gratification.

Right! So, there you go.

Personally, I wanted to look more like Olympic gold swimmers or Tour d'France winners than Schwartzenegger. Fat chance. At this stage of the game, I'm doing strength training so that I'll be able to get into my wheel chair some time down the road.

But you have raised a good point here: Men are not immune to the plague of body image issues. That doesn't mean that guys who want to lift weights should be cleared first by a psychoanalyst. Weight lifting doesn't make people neurotic; neurotics get carried away with it. Neuroticism distorts a healthy activity when it becomes compulsive; when one's sense of psychological well-being is impaired if delineation of some muscle group isn't perfect; when it begins to displace other, important, areas of life.

Don't get me wrong: If one can manage it (and most people can, theoretically) a man should be fairly lean. We should have enough cardio conditioning and be muscular enough to perform certain kinds of tasks like: swimming at least a quarter of a mile (9 laps of an olympic pool); jogging for an hour; bicycling 50 miles on a decent bike; walking 5 miles without difficulty; carrying heavy items; digging up soil for a garden; painting a house; shoveling a heavy snow fall; and so forth. We should maintain some level of fitness into our 60s and 70s, if possible.

In other words, over-all fitness rather than focussing on only 1 area of fitness.

Oh no, I'm not neurotic in that way. Or maybe all of my other neuroticisms just overshadow it.

As a once competitive sportsman, there is something very odd about bodybuilding since it appears to do away with any athleticism. To be honest, I question their motivations. To an outsider it appears to be a symptom of a body dysmorphic disorder. — Txastopher

How does it do away with athleticism? What, exactly, is athleticism? And whatever you define as athleticism, why does bodybuilding need to have that in order to be worthwhile? And why does athleticism legitimize an activity? Is an activity involving the body somehow illegitimate if it isn't athletic?

I am an artist. And nothing appeals to me aesthetically quite as much as the muscular human form. Muscle on bone is beautiful. The biomechanics of the body in its various operations is all beautiful. The sculptural qualities of the forms are very worthy of appreciation. And appreciation of a muscular physique doesn't have to be a sexual thing. I can understand cultivating a muscular physique simply because it is beautiful.

I suspect that for at least some bodybuilders, it is more of an aesthetic thing than a matter of pure athletic achievement. And the aesthetics might not be limited to enjoying the resulting physique. The practice and feeling of mindfully lifting heavy masses with flawless form has value in itself, not unlike tai chi. Simply exercising self-discipline is an aesthetically pleasing experience. There is something in just regularly pushing oneself to exhaustion in a set of exercises while part of the brain and body cry for us to stop. There is a cultivation of strength of character in such practices.

I am not a bodybuilder. I am a rock climber though, and we climbers tend to be a bit obsessive about physique too, not just for physical performance, but partly for visual appeal, as climbing is partly visual performance, and we like to be seen doing it, just as a musician likes to play for an audience. There is an element of dance to it. We think about how we look while moving over stone. But we tend toward a more wiry physique for maximum strength-to-weight ratio.

For me, climbing, with the technique, the setting, the practice of the requisite virtues, the movement, the grace, the appearance of the body in relation to the problem, the doing of something difficult, and so on, but especially the skillful and graceful execution of the carefully orchestrated sequence of moves demanded by the problem, each requiring deep biomechanical and kinesthetic insight, is far more about the beauty of the whole practice than about "athleticism" for its own sake, whatever that is, whatever value that imparts to an activity, if any. In my experience, knowing my own motivations and observing many others and talking to them, it seems to be more of an art than some kind of athletic ambition, even though it is arguably as "athletic" as anything. It even might be said to have many things in common with the practices of the samurai.

And for many of its practitioners, climbing is a highly obsessive activity. It is a lifestyle. Many lives revolve around it. We climbers often make our friends around it. We build businesses around it. We read and write books about it. We meet our significant others through it. We pursue self-mastery in it. We pursue a kind of spiritual development in it. We find incredible camaraderie in it. We collect lots of appealing gear, lots of satisfying toys. We abandon conventional careers for it. I imagine bodybuilding is similar to this in many ways.

Does it get in the way of other things? Sure! What doesn't? Are we neurotics? More than hard-working businessmen? More than philosophers?

Consider that all the accusations made about bodybuilders and their self-obsession, vanity, inability to feel okay with themselves without such a physique, and so on, could be leveled at just about anyone who does just about anything with enthusiasm and persistence.

Why do philosophers feel such a need to be intelligent? Why can't they be satisfied with everyday ideas and levels of understanding? Why all the reading of obscure and difficult books and performing their understanding for others? Why all the posing? Why all the pretense of profundity? Something to prove? Some sense of inadequacy? Oh, they are all driven by a pure sense of wonder or a pure pursuit of the good, are they?

Are the motivations behind bodybuilding or rock climbing or philosophy absolutely pure? Of course not. But what is that impurity anyway? And why is it wrong? Pulling on one of those threads could lead you to the heart of the problem of the good.

The idea of developing my own physique along the lines of the bodybuilder has appealed to me at times much in the same way that cultivating a beautiful bonzai would appeal to me. Obviously, I would enjoy the idea of my improved sex appeal (assuming my bodybuilding is kept within tasteful limits), but that isn't all there is to it. And sure, I am also dissatisfied with the way I look when I am out of shape. I feel dumpy. I feel like my vices are there for all to see. The same goes for letting flabbiness of mind get out of control. I also am unhappy to paint a picture that doesn't reach a certain standard. Is it wrong to be unsatisfied with what we tend to be when we fail to practice all discipline?

There is pleasure in excellence in all its forms.

And not all good things derive their goodness from the degree to which their practitioners are useful to others. On the contrary, I often think the best things are ends in themselves. Is what is found in bodybuilding on this level? That's up to its practitioners to decide. We, the larger community, have no claim on it. It doesn't need to be for us. It isn't up to us to decide. What is in bodybuilding belongs to the bodybuilders.

People outside worlds like these tend not to understand what they are about. Many people think climbing is about being a daredevil. I often get accused of being an adrenaline junkie or having a death wish or being an escapist. Or they make fun of someone "conquering" a wall or mountain. They just don't have a clue what it is about. It contains aesthetic dimensions, insights, and joys that they'd never suspect. I would guess that bodybuilding isn't so different. This is all difficult even for us to articulate to ourselves. I often find myself wishing I could share what it is I find in climbing with non-climbers, but it just isn't possible. Words fail.

And why do we like to judge bodybuilders, but not quilters or something like that? People similarly attack money-makers. Are we jealous? Is it our own dissatisfaction with our own bodies and our own lack of discipline that drives the armchair criticism and psychoanalysis? Explain it all away as pathology and then we can go back to our tub of buttered popcorn and our Netflix series with a clear conscience. No?

Bodybuilding is fine. If you find it rewarding, don't mind all the critics. Don't seek their approval. You don't need their permission.

And I don't even see the big problem with using performance enhancing drugs. It just depends on what it is all about for you. Whether it is "cheating" depends on what kind of game you are playing, if you are even playing a game.

I used to think that the body and mind are not toys, but I am beginning to question that. Perhaps we are all just playing with form in one way or another. And we tend to take it all way too seriously! Especially death!