• Gnostic Christian Bishop
    1.4k
    Would only an evil god blame his own creations for the taint therein -- of his poor craftsmanship?

    God is said to have condemned the whole world and all in it who followed Adam and Eve.

    Christianity calls it our Original Sin; the sin of being born tainted by Adam’s sin. It happens to be an immoral construct that the Jews do not have in the original theology.

    We are also told that god creates us all tainted and sustains us all.

    If I erred in raising or creating my children, I would step up to the blame.

    Why does god punish us, victims of his poor craftsmanship, instead of taking his rightful blame?

    I also thought that Yahweh was the Jewish god, yet Christianity does not have Yahweh following his own law. Christians have Yahweh murdering his own son as a sacrifice that goes against most sane laws.

    Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

    God, it seems to me, has screwed up creation and wants to blame the creation for his own
    incompetence.

    Thoughts?

    Regards
    DL
  • PoeticUniverse
    1.3k
    If there is a 'God', He wholly made human nature to be what it is, and so it expresses itself accordingly, over a great range stretching from angelic to devilish, to no big surprise.
  • Gnostic Christian Bishop
    1.4k
    If there is a 'God', He wholly made human nature to be what it is, and so it expresses itself accordingly, over a great range stretching from angelic to devilish, to no big surprise.PoeticUniverse

    There is no god and we follow our instincts quite well. Jut look at how successful humankind is.

    Yet we still complain against about how the boogie man created us.

    Regards
    DL
  • T Clark
    9.8k
    God, it seems to me, has screwed up creation and wants to blame the creation for his own
    incompetence.
    Gnostic Christian Bishop

    I had read a lot about Christopher Hitchens, how good an essayist and thinker he was. He was well known as an atheist, but he was considered a public intellectual with a very broad range of interests and expertise. I decided I would read something by him to see if he had anything to offer. I choose one of his atheism essays, I can't remember the title. It was very obviously a vigorous polemic, which I didn't object to. It was the quality of his argument I was interested in.

    Among all his expected arguments against God's existence ; lack of evidence, no falsifiable predictions, unwillingness to consider legitimate alternative explanations, dependence on suspect historic sources, inconsistencies in different parts of the bible etc. etc.; he tossed in an argument that surprised me. God has done such terrible things - he claims to be merciful but sends people to hell for eternity for technical violations, he tells people to kill their sons, he makes a bet with the devil to torture one of his followers. How could people believe in such an evil entity.

    Well, I stopped reading at that point and I've never been tempted to read anything else by him. He's supposed to be so smart but uses what he must know is an intellectually dishonest argument that has nothing to do with the subject being discussed. Whether or not God is good has no impact on whether or not he exists.

    So, what's my point? I judge your argument by the same standards. Whether or not the things you say are true, that has no bearing on whether or not there is a God. Or was your only intention to insult God?
  • Gnostic Christian Bishop
    1.4k
    Or was your only intention to insult God?T Clark

    My only intention is to make Christians think of the prick they are idol worshiping and recognize that such a prick is not a worthy god.

    Hitchens, is not a literalist but has to use a literalist stance if he is going to criticize them.
    He was reporting what believers believe and not what he believes so I see you as the dishonest one who would rather waste time arguing for the existence of that myth instead of looking at the immorality of a satanic Yahweh.

    Regards
    DL
  • PoeticUniverse
    1.3k
    How could people believe in such an evil entity.T Clark

    Yet they do, and are full of excuses such as 'mysterious ways', blah, blah, and even dishonestly teach their suppositions as if they are truth. This could affect all of us if they could impress the government, but this hardly ever happens. Look to cleric-run governments, such as in Iran, to fully grasp it.

    Whether or not God is good has no impact on whether or not he exists.T Clark

    Now, although this thread is centered on exposing the supposed Christian God as evil, it shouldn't hurt to extend it toward the likelihood of God's existence or not, if no one minds…
  • T Clark
    9.8k
    My only intention is to make Christians think of the prick they are idol worshiping and recognize that such a prick is not a worthy god.Gnostic Christian Bishop

    So, your answer is yes, your only intention is to insult God and the people who worship him. As I said, that doesn't have anything to do with whether or not he exists.
  • PoeticUniverse
    1.3k
    The Hand of the Potter Shakes:

    At the crossroads of His human experiment,
    God wondered where the human nature went:
    “Damn! I formulated it so perfectly in the lab,
    So why did it not turn out exceedingly fab?

    “Adam and Eve failed in the blink of an eye,
    So I sent Commandments down from the sky,
    But ever did humans build the golden calves
    Diminishing my needed adoration into halves.

    “So I killed all experiments but Noah’s sake,
    For they were all a big rainbow of My mistake;
    I right the human course yet once again to sail
    Into those waters where it can not ever fail.

    “What’s this, I see that all again has gone amiss;
    I’ll have Jesus preach the other check to kiss.
    Human nature failed for sure; they put him to death;
    I must check my formulas once again to save the rest.

    “I will send more prophets to shake the mixture up;
    Oh, no, this life cast they still crash; I must give up!”
  • deletedusercb
    1.7k
    On the other hand the two issues do need to be separated. Let's say God does exist but is not a loving deity, by any standards. Then there is the option to not worship such a God. It's a scary thing to consider, but if one does follow an evil God, who exists, one is very much like the sychophants around an earthly dictator: afraid and currying favor, and in a certain sense contributing to evil. I would understand the fear. And I would understand the fear of even wanting to notice that the dictator or the deity is evil. And I think a lot of conventional monotheists lack the courage to notice that on some level they are afraid to even consider their God is evil. Not just their conception of God, but to notice their fear that He exists and is evil. And just because one has that fear, it does not mean the fear is right. But it still needs to be noticed, accepted, and integrated. But that all gets hopped over.

    It seems to me both morally and then in terms of coming into full maturity you have to notice and integrate these feelings and fears. And then consider what you would do, feel, intend if you realized that at your core you thought your God was evil or making mistakes, etc.

    It takes courage.

    There can be a great relief in simply doing what you are told and currying favor and ducking your head down when the dictator walks past.
  • TheMadFool
    13.9k
    Why does god punish us, victims of his poor craftsmanship, instead of taking his rightful blame?Gnostic Christian Bishop

    Think of humans. Would you consider true/real Artificial Intelligence "poor craftmanship"?
  • deletedusercb
    1.7k
    I can imagine scenarios where the scientists and the companies that hired them are quite pleased (or the government that assembled the team) but where one scientists thinks there is a problem or where certain citizens realize there is a problem, and hopefully not too late.
  • T Clark
    9.8k


    Thought you and @PoeticUniverse might like this. These are lyrics from one of my favorite Randy Newman songs - "That's Why I Love Mankind." God is singing.

    Man means nothing he means less to me
    Than the lowliest cactus flower
    Or the humblest Yucca tree
    He chases round this desert
    Cause he thinks that's where I'll be
    That's why I love mankind

    I recoil in horror from the foulness of thee
    From the squalor and the filth and the misery
    How we laugh up here in heaven at the prayers you offer me
    That's why I love mankind

    It's a wonderful song.
  • Tzeentch
    1.9k
    Do you blame your parents for all your faults?
  • EricH
    418
    Whether or not God is good has no impact on whether or not he exists.T Clark

    inconsistencies in different parts of the bibleT Clark

    You are correct that whether or not God is good has no impact on whether or not he exists.

    However, as far as I know, God's goodness is a core tenet of most versions of Christianity,

    By pointing out that the God depicted in the Old & new Testaments commits horribly cruel acts, Hitchens was simply highlighting one of the most glaring inconsistencies in standard Christian version of God.
  • T Clark
    9.8k
    By pointing out that the God depicted in the Old & new Testaments commits horribly cruel acts, Hitchens was simply highlighting one of the most glaring inconsistencies in standard Christian version of God.EricH

    That's a good point, and true to a point. What struck me in Hitchens's essay, and in the posts from @PoeticUniverse and @Gnostic Christian Bishop, among many others, is the hatred they have for God and religion and the contempt they feel for those who believe.
  • khaled
    3.4k
    Whether or not God is good has no impact on whether or not he exists.T Clark

    It has everything to do with whether or not the Christian god exists though.
  • T Clark
    9.8k
    It has everything to do with whether or not the Christian god exists though.khaled

    Explain please.
  • khaled
    3.4k
    the Christian god is all good. If you confirm god, if he exists is not good, then whatever god may or may not exist is not the Christian god. Or the god of any of the Abrahamic religions. Or any other religion that claims god is all good.
  • T Clark
    9.8k
    the Christian god is all good. If you confirm god, if he exists is not good, then whatever god may or may not exist is not the Christian god. Or the god of any of the Abrahamic religions. Or any other religion that claims god is all good.khaled

    I don't find that a convincing argument.
  • khaled
    3.4k
    why not?

    Claim: A red ball exists in this box
    Fact (if you’re taking what he’s saying as true): If a ball existed in this box, it would be blue
    Conclusion: The claim is false (although a ball can still exist in the box)
  • T Clark
    9.8k
    Claim: A red ball exists in this box
    Fact (if you’re taking what he’s saying as true): If a ball existed in this box, it would be blue
    Conclusion: The claim is false (although a ball can still exist in the box)
    khaled

    Yeah, but there's still a ball in the box. No, no. Wait. Forget that. I don't want to get into another one of our nitpicky arguments about this. I made my point. I got started in this thread just because of the distaste I feel for the kinds of arguments @Gnostic Christian Bishop was making, if you can even call them arguments.
  • khaled
    3.4k
    Yeah, but there's still a ball in the box.T Clark

    But not a red one

    Forget that. I don't want to get into another one of our nitpicky arguments about thisT Clark

    I’ll just leave it at that then
  • Gnostic Christian Bishop
    1.4k
    Think of humans. Would you consider true/real Artificial Intelligence "poor craftmanship"?TheMadFool

    I don't know as I have yet to see such a thing.

    Why would you compared a man's ability to a gods?

    Do you see us as equal to god or perhaps better given our better secular law?

    Regards
    DL
  • Gnostic Christian Bishop
    1.4k
    and hopefully not too late.Coben

    We are already a part of a major global extinction event.

    We may have doomed our grandchildren.

    Regards
    DL
  • Gnostic Christian Bishop
    1.4k
    That's why I love mankindT Clark

    If you love mankind, then you should hate the gods that would enslaver us. like Yahweh and Allah.

    Regards
    DL
  • deletedusercb
    1.7k
    If they were genetic scientists who made me from scratch and claimed to be all knowing and all powerful

    sure.
  • Gnostic Christian Bishop
    1.4k
    Do you blame your parents for all your faults?Tzeentch

    No. They did the best they could with what they had.

    Do you credit your parents to some extent for the good in you?

    Why would you compare humans to to a god?

    Regards
    DL
  • Gnostic Christian Bishop
    1.4k
    However, as far as I know, God's goodness is a core tenet of most versions of Christianity,EricH

    True, and how Christians get from a genocidal and infanticidal god to look good is something Christians run away from explaining.

    Regards
    DL
  • Gnostic Christian Bishop
    1.4k
    among many others, is the hatred they have for God and religion and the contempt they feel for those who believe.T Clark

    Indeed. They are a disgrace toi the human race.

    Why do you not hate a genocidal and infanticidal god?

    Regards
    DL
  • Gnostic Christian Bishop
    1.4k
    Or the god of any of the Abrahamic religions. Or any other religion that claims god is all good.khaled

    True. In a dualistic world, god must have a Yin and Yang. The bible confirms this.

    Regards
    DL
  • TheMadFool
    13.9k
    I don't know as I have yet to see such a thing.

    Why would you compared a man's ability to a gods?

    Do you see us as equal to god or perhaps better given our better secular law?
    Gnostic Christian Bishop

    To tell you the truth I really can't make sense of this world. So understanding an omniscient being is way out of my league.

    I feel that if there is an omniscient being we'd all be like monkeys trying to comprehend what E = mc^2 means.

    However if a place of pain-free bliss, utopia, can be imagined and planned for by humans (monkeys) I just wonder how an omniscient being could not and an omnipotent being did not.
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